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Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

The $80-90BN budget is a dream. Metrolinx is going to spend $30BN on 15.8km of Ontario line. How will 900km+ cost only 3x more when they’ll literally need to build hundreds of bridges? Gotta love Gov estimates!!
you cannot possibly equate a rapid transit metro line in a dense urban environment with substantial tunneling to an intercity rail project. This is a joke right?

And also, Metrolinx isn’t managing Alto. So that alone should cut costs and timelines by 50% 😎
 
Does anyone know why more stops in Quebec than Ontario and why Laval? If one suburb should have been included it’s Mississauga being much bigger.

Blame the Ontario government, it's previous HSR plan and Metrolinx for why nothing is planned West of Union right now. Extensions will happen when all that is sorted out. Either way not everything can be included in the first phase.
 
Guys - it’s going to terminate at Summerhill and the LCBO becomes the station. Mark my words.

And? They are balancing cost, construction complexity and service planning. If they have to use Summerhill to get this into service earlier and cheaper so be it. We can discuss a downtown terminus later.

The $80-90BN budget is a dream.

Only a dream if people keep insisting on purity. Like you did above.

Metrolinx is going to spend $30BN on 15.8km of Ontario line. How will 900km+ cost only 3x more when they’ll literally need to build hundreds of bridges? Gotta love Gov estimates!!

Beyond the ignorance that others pointed out, you don't seem to the contradiction in your own positions. Also, if you don't like public transport why are you here?
 
Silly estimation. The cost of owning a car is 2-3x what it was 20 years and that’s not about to change

I am as skeptical as anyone of the eventual cost of Alto (not saying that I have a better estimate, I simply accept that these numbers are at best shots in the dark)

but I think we have indeed turned a page.

The cost to the consumer of operating a vehicle is not the deciding factor. It is the increasing congestion of roads and the cost of doing anything about that. And, the increasing cost of adding new airport capacity for intercity corridors. I expect people will continue to own automobiles. But the utility of those vehicles for specific travel needs, in the presence of attractive competing options, is what is changing, and not raw cost,.

Timing is everything:
- One does not have to be a Liberal supporter to appreciate that federal politics have changed and the current Cabinet is taking a more deliberate, targeted approach to nation building - and the new relationship with the US is adding urgency - leading to an appetite for federal spending on clearly defined projects.
- The Opposition and its current leader have now had plenty of opportunity to aggressively oppose Alto - in their somewhat churlish style of late - and all we are hearing from them is.....crickets. They may choose to sit back and throw darts as costs rise or things fall behind schedule, but they are not making a fundamental case against the plan. Perhaps they realise that if they do form the next government, they may be wise not to have drawn a line in the sand that they may have to walk back.
- The issue for government is not really the voter directly, but where they raise money for infrastructure. A financing plan that pulls in private investment (even if in some obscure way) seems to be doable here. The angst for government is how they would explain huge investment in highways and airports in an environment where private involvement in these is less welcome and direct user fees for these are a third rail proposition. (ask Doug Ford about that one).
- It's remarkable how VIA pitched its original HFR based on the lowest possible capital cost, out of fear of taxpayer resistance - yet the plan has morphed to a much higher cost estimate for something that even a decade ago was seen as a bauble. The government's observation that a branding strategy was needed has worked - "Alto" seems to be sticking. The voters have not revolted. Alberta has bigger things to grind an axe over, and may be eager to have an Alto of its own.
- Air travel has pretty much lost its attractiveness for corridor length travel. Porter may still be a conspicuous exception, but Westjet is reducing seat pitch and removing reclining seats. The public's appetite for something better is growing and may have passed a tipping point.
- The urban construction industry, which was perking along nicely, has stalled. A lot of construction workers and their unions are wondering where the next project is going to come from.

A long rant but I think it's time to accept - this thing is going to happen.

- Paul
 
Guys - it’s going to terminate at Summerhill and the LCBO becomes the station. Mark my words.

Impossible? No; Unlikely, Yes.

For a host of reasons.

Aside from those already discussed by @Urban Sky and others..........

The Summerhill 'station' is not owned by the government, its privately-owned and would have to be purchased.

It would not be a cheap asset.

The LCBO makes a lot of $$ at that site, there are huge numbers of bulk buys at that store by the resto industry.

The cost of physically modifying it back to a railway terminal, while protecting its heritage are not immaterial.

It is not physically connected to the subway system currently.

You would also be running the service on CPKC's main line, that will be the case anyway for a distance of several km further east; but adding several more km which would require new/widened bridges and embankments, some of that abutting the homes of the richest people in the country, is not a small matter either.

Nothing that can't be overcome; but its not quite the easy low-lying fruit you might think.
 
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Blame the Ontario government, it's previous HSR plan and Metrolinx for why nothing is planned West of Union right now. Extensions will happen when all that is sorted out. Either way not everything can be included in the first phase.

Exactly. The fact that Ontario cannot muster the wherewithall to make the smaller, affordable improvements that would mitigate this timing for a decade or two speaks volumes. Some of us have not forgotten Doug Ford's promise of $220M to bring GO to London, and how that fell apart.

Having said that, even if the construction has to wait - the planning discussion can happen in parallel to Alto, and is desperately needed. The 401 is pretty much melting down west of Highway 400, all the way to Highway 8 at least.

- Paul
 
I am as skeptical as anyone of the eventual cost of Alto (not saying that I have a better estimate, I simply accept that these numbers are at best shots in the dark)

but I think we have indeed turned a page.

The cost to the consumer of operating a vehicle is not the deciding factor. It is the increasing congestion of roads and the cost of doing anything about that. And, the increasing cost of adding new airport capacity for intercity corridors. I expect people will continue to own automobiles. But the utility of those vehicles for specific travel needs, in the presence of attractive competing options, is what is changing, and not raw cost,.

Timing is everything:
- One does not have to be a Liberal supporter to appreciate that federal politics have changed and the current Cabinet is taking a more deliberate, targeted approach to nation building - and the new relationship with the US is adding urgency - leading to an appetite for federal spending on clearly defined projects.
- The Opposition and its current leader have now had plenty of opportunity to aggressively oppose Alto - in their somewhat churlish style of late - and all we are hearing from them is.....crickets. They may choose to sit back and throw darts as costs rise or things fall behind schedule, but they are not making a fundamental case against the plan. Perhaps they realise that if they do form the next government, they may be wise not to have drawn a line in the sand that they may have to walk back.
- The issue for government is not really the voter directly, but where they raise money for infrastructure. A financing plan that pulls in private investment (even if in some obscure way) seems to be doable here. The angst for government is how they would explain huge investment in highways and airports in an environment where private involvement in these is less welcome and direct user fees for these are a third rail proposition. (ask Doug Ford about that one).
- It's remarkable how VIA pitched its original HFR based on the lowest possible capital cost, out of fear of taxpayer resistance - yet the plan has morphed to a much higher cost estimate for something that even a decade ago was seen as a bauble. The government's observation that a branding strategy was needed has worked - "Alto" seems to be sticking. The voters have not revolted. Alberta has bigger things to grind an axe over, and may be eager to have an Alto of its own.
- Air travel has pretty much lost its attractiveness for corridor length travel. Porter may still be a conspicuous exception, but Westjet is reducing seat pitch and removing reclining seats. The public's appetite for something better is growing and may have passed a tipping point.
- The urban construction industry, which was perking along nicely, has stalled. A lot of construction workers and their unions are wondering where the next project is going to come from.

A long rant but I think it's time to accept - this thing is going to happen.

- Paul

Agree with pretty much everything above, but for a small tweak.

See bolded. West Jet just publicly nixed that idea after receiving an earful from customers.

But your point stands. Short-distance plane travel is hassle-ridden and generally not that comfortable.
 
The cost to the consumer of operating a vehicle is not the deciding factor. It is the increasing congestion of roads and the cost of doing anything about that. And, the increasing cost of adding new airport capacity for intercity corridors. I expect people will continue to own automobiles. But the utility of those vehicles for specific travel needs, in the presence of attractive competing options, is what is changing, and not raw cost,.

💯

Day to day congestion is getting terrible. It takes hours to make it out of the GTA at certain times of the day. And now it's not just the GTA that is congested. Try driving in Ottawa or Montreal at peak. It's not a 5.5 hr drive from downtown Toronto to downtown Montreal. It's more like 7 hrs with traffic. And that's only going to get worse as population grows.

Meanwhile, flying is getting more and more expensive. And those airport expansions have to be paid for.

It's a legitimate loss to the economy if public transport doesn't improve.

And just remember. Bad as you think congestion is now, just imagine what it will be 10, 15, 20 years from now if alternatives low HSR aren't developed.
 
Impossible? No; Unlikely, Yes.

For a host of reasons.
To your excellent list, I would add

- the zoning and land use planning impacts on the surrounding area, and the changes to currently planned development resulting from placing the station at Summerhill, and the impacts on local communities (which are pretty affluent and well connected) would inevitably lengthen the time to shovels in the ground

- Paul
 
Exactly. The fact that Ontario cannot muster the wherewithall to make the smaller, affordable improvements that would mitigate this timing for a decade or two speaks volumes. Some of us have not forgotten Doug Ford's promise of $220M to bring GO to London, and how that fell apart.

Having said that, even if the construction has to wait - the planning discussion can happen in parallel to Alto, and is desperately needed. The 401 is pretty much melting down west of Highway 400, all the way to Highway 8 at least.

- Paul

Nothing will light a fire to have Alto extended west more than some voter from SWO seeing Alto trains at Union after getting off their VIA.
 
Agree with pretty much everything above, but for a small tweak.

See bolded. West Jet just publicly nixed that idea after receiving an earful from customers.

But your point stands. Short-distance plane travel is hassle-ridden and generally not that comfortable.

They did halt that plan, yes..... my prediction is that it's a reputational tipping point that will stick (and hopefully an opportunity that will be seized by competitors). For lots of travellers I talk to, the bloom is off the rose for Westjet and this will haunt them for a while.

- Paul
 
The $80-90BN budget is a dream. Metrolinx is going to spend $30BN on 15.8km of Ontario line. How will 900km+ cost only 3x more when they’ll literally need to build hundreds of bridges? Gotta love Gov estimates!!

Pertty simple explanation: land expropriation and site operation costs to tunnel in the downtown core of Toronto vs greenfield construction on expropriated farmland and existing ROWs.
 

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