Finch West Line 6 LRT

[APTA-2048]

I know we all think it the fault of cars and not having signal priority, but I'm going to offer another theory.

I think all doors boarding is actually slower than boarding through a single door up front. Everyone just seems to lazily get on off these (and the new streetcars) instead of showing a little hustle and initiative. Heaven forbid they have to deploy the wheelchair ramp! When that happens you're about to miss 4 or 5 light cycles.

Streetcars/LRTs are a romantic notion that doesn't work in real life. What we need are lots of subways and lots of diesel buses.

It works in plenty of other cities. More people need to realize just how much the TTC kneecaps their own service.

 

[Steve X]

We do have a lot of non locals coming here to say we need subways subways subways but not realize that it’s not helpful for these neighborhoods.

For those hopping on for a few stops, this will be great. For those looking for a straight connect from Humber polytechnic to Finch West. The C-Train like service would be great. However the locals looking to take it a few blocks would have to take the bus instead.

C-Train stations were built cheaply in railway corridors, highway mediums or other fast flowing roads space approximately 2km apart. Access is near impossible without a car or taking a local infrequent route. So while the ride is great, you need to open a car to get anywhere fast. Plus those huge GO station like parking lots are insane. Totally not suitable for Toronto.

 

[Obsidian]

Even on the low end for trip duration, Metrolinx never promised 22 km/h average speeds? Even if end-to-end was only 33 minutes, the speeds would be below 20 km/h when including dwell times. 10.3/(33/60)= 18.7 km/h.

More to the point: a 22 km/h average moving speed target without including the time stationary at each stop is a pointless target.

Source: https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/...trolinx/Finch-West-LRT-FAQs-Revised-June9.pdf

We're waiting at red lights 10+ minutes. It is a huge problem. Subtract 10 minutes from 52 minutes and you're already at 42 minutes.

Again someone explain to me and @ARG1 this clownery from the parties involved:
"All of the City's current TSP locations are 'unconditional' in their operation. [...] For these reasons, and in consultation with the City and TTC the Metrolinx consortia are implementing Conditional TSP on Line 5 Eglinton and Line 6 Finch West."
Source: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2025/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-254795.pdf

The streetcar signal priority is already weaker than a wet paper bag. Who in their right mind thought implementing even weaker signal priority than the streetcar would be a smart idea for two flagship transit projects?

The city is the one who is preventing full TSP from being implemented even though both metrolink and the TTC want it and it's already installed.

 

[hw621]

I was thinking. Would it be possible to allow the LRT to have a green light before the advance green? This would save 25 seconds x 16 stops. The bus can go at the same time as the advance green so it has more signal priority than the LRT.

We spent how many billions of dollars for a train that travels slower than a bike. The bike even gets signal priority over the LRT.

Too complicated for the City and TTC

 

[lead82]

The fix is quite easy - no idling at stops for 2-3 mins for no reason and true signal priority meaning that. The train should never stop at a red light - that should be the goal but this is Toronto, so not holding my breath.

 

[urbanclient]

The city is the one who is preventing full TSP from being implemented even though both metrolink and the TTC want it and it's already installed.

Do you have a source for this? That we should be attributing the lack of strong signal priority to the city council and mayor? (instead of Metrolinx and TTC)

 

[6ixGod]

We do have a lot of non locals coming here to say we need subways subways subways but not realize that it’s not helpful for these neighborhoods.

For those hopping on for a few stops, this will be great. For those looking for a straight connect from Humber polytechnic to Finch West. The C-Train like service would be great. However the locals looking to take it a few blocks would have to take the bus instead.

C-Train stations were built cheaply in railway corridors, highway mediums or other fast flowing roads space approximately 2km apart. Access is near impossible without a car or taking a local infrequent route. So while the ride is great, you need to open a car to get anywhere fast. Plus those huge GO station like parking lots are insane. Totally not suitable for Toronto.

LOL non-locals? Subways are what Toronto needs because this city moves the ridership of an entire region on a single corridor. They aren’t a luxury and they aren’t some ‘downtown elite’ toy. They’re basic infrastructure in a city like Toronto. So enough of this ‘out-of-towners don’t understand’ spin. That warped mentality….treating the outer boroughs as an afterthought while pretending only the core matters….is how Rob Ford got elected in the first place, and why Doug Ford is running the province now. When you keep giving the boroughs scraps, you feed the resentment that puts Ford-style politics in power.

Toronto is one city, not some downtown bubble with satellite towns attached. Build subways where the people actually live, move, and work, and stop pretending Calgary’s model can be cut-and-pasted onto a city that outgrows it every single morning rush hour.

 

[canucks2030]

We do have a lot of non locals coming here to say we need subways subways subways but not realize that it’s not helpful for these neighborhoods.

For those hopping on for a few stops, this will be great. For those looking for a straight connect from Humber polytechnic to Finch West. The C-Train like service would be great. However the locals looking to take it a few blocks would have to take the bus instead.

C-Train stations were built cheaply in railway corridors, highway mediums or other fast flowing roads space approximately 2km apart. Access is near impossible without a car or taking a local infrequent route. So while the ride is great, you need to open a car to get anywhere fast. Plus those huge GO station like parking lots are insane. Totally not suitable for Toronto.

They say that because Toronto, Canada’s largest city, has not open a new subway line in almost a quarter century. And the first new line to open not grade separated, no signal priority, very slow and look more like a tramway than light right. Worst it’s being included in the map like a subway and this is false advertising. It’s clear if the city didn’t wanted to make the changes to make the line faster they should have not build this line (BRT would have been more appropriated).

 

[APTA-2048]

(BRT would have been more appropriated).

I got to disagree. As someone who spent four years commuting with the 36. I was getting on crush loaded articulated buses coming every few minutes at rush hour. I’m not sure how many more buses you could run.

And the 36 has high turnover. A lot of the people weren’t riding it from end to end. Many get on and get off after a few blocks. Sure others like me rode it from end to end, but the bus route was very busy with people constantly getting on and off.

 

[Bojaxs]

I got to disagree. As someone who spent four years commuting with the 36. I was getting on crush loaded articulated buses coming every few minutes at rush hour. I’m not sure how many more buses you could run.

And the 36 has high turnover. A lot of the people weren’t riding it from end to end. Many get on and get off after a few blocks. Sure others like me rode it from end to end, but the bus route was very busy with people constantly getting on and off.

Yes, but how many of those articulated buses were at crush capacity because the 36 buses were delayed by traffic?

Subway keeps dropping people off at Finch West while the 36 bus still has yet to show up.

 

[mikey7767]

A compelling argument to never do anything about anything that has historically been terrible.

I also said that it would make more sense to actually get the TTC to fix what we already have to prove that they are capable of making LRTs/trams that are faster and reliable before building a new LRT line, so that we are not stuck with the same white elephant when we build a new one with no guarantee that anything will change along with a $3.5 Billion price tag.

Until you run out of capacity on that BRT. What then? There is a wide spectrum of ridership between what a bus can carry and when it starts to make sense to have a subway, and an LRT can be scaled up in a way that BRT cannot.

BRTs with more buses can meet a similar capacity, and especially bi-articulated buses can meet a similar capacity. I'll give you the capacity point as it comes easier with LRTs, but I still don't think that it is worth the price point.

Then an LRT can be built on a bridge. If we are spending $3.5 Billion, I think it would be fine to spend a bit more to make it grade separated. That said, I'll still acknowledge that capacity is a strong point for LRTs, but it's not worth half the cost of a subway when you have BRTs as an option, can optimize for those BRTs, and when you have not optimized for the existing routes (Spadina and St. Clair) to show that you won't make a new LRT a white elephant.

It may not be enough to change the operating procedures for the legacy streetcar fleet, but bad PR for a brand new transit project may be enough to push them to make changes

I hope you are right but I doubt it will happen, and I prefer not building new lines on maybe there will be an improvement in the future, because otherwise, it is a very expensive gamble.

Yes, when people discredit a legitimate form of transportation just because our own application of it is poor, I have a problem with it.

I disagree. If our implementation is crap, then I don't think it's worth building in our city.

Then you should have clarified that, no? How can you get mad at me for taking your argument at face value?

Yes. But it was a mistake. What you jumped to "nobody takes you seriously" or something like that, which is just not true based on my interactions with folks privately and with the feedback on my posts.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to have a grievance with me, bully for you.

I'm not interested in being nasty, but you started it when you said "nobody takes you seriously" or something of that nature, and with your sarcasm later on. You wanna be passive aggressive/sarcastic, I'll bite back.

So your argument will lead to advocating for a subway eventually, just not as fast.

Yes exactly. I would max out the BRT capacity and optimize for those BRTs. And if we are close enough for subway capacity, then that's exactly what I would do if the capacity level warrants it. And if that subway is built, it will take absorb commuters from so many other surface routes as well, especially surrounding routes at a much higher level than an LRT ever will, reducing demand on other routes at a much higher rate, and getting cars off the road, and improving travel times throughout the city and making transit attractive. Until then, I'm happy with a bus way or a RapidTO solution.

People have been predicting this outcome for years, without evidence.

I disagree. We had evidence with 510 and 512. They are in the same spectrum of service and were even branded as LRTs at one point. And we knew the city did not implement TSP for this, making it very similar to 510/512.

 

[APTA-2048]

Yes, but how many of those articulated buses were at crush capacity because the 36 buses were delayed by traffic?

Subway keeps dropping people off at Finch West while the 36 bus still has yet to show up.

I had to wait for the next bus sometimes, which came a few minutes later and also eventually filled up. Sure traffic makes things worse, but there were just a lot of people riding the bus. Not just from the subway end.

 

[afransen]

It is a monumental achievement. Something can be a monumental achievement and unsatisfactory in important ways.

GO Expansion (with DB's vision) would have been a monumental achievement. Opening a mostly surface suburban LRT line is kind of the the bare minimum for a city the size of Toronto.

 

[McGillicuddy]

GO Expansion (with DB's vision) would have been a monumental achievement. Opening a mostly surface suburban LRT line is kind of the the bare minimum for a city the size of Toronto.

This is the first all-new piece of higher-order transit this city has opened in more than 20 years. If you don't consider it a big deal, then, to me, that feels like you're condemning the city for failing to live up to your aspirations rather than your expectations.

 

[canucks2030]

I got to disagree. As someone who spent four years commuting with the 36. I was getting on crush loaded articulated buses coming every few minutes at rush hour. I’m not sure how many more buses you could run.

And the 36 has high turnover. A lot of the people weren’t riding it from end to end. Many get on and get off after a few blocks. Sure others like me rode it from end to end, but the bus route was very busy with people constantly getting on and off.

Not saying BRT the solution but if they didn’t wanted to give priority and didn’t wanted to increase the speed then yes it should have been a BRT. The whole line, currently, seems to have been build more for BRT than light rail and this is disappointing. It’s not normal it’s approximately 50 minutes for only 10KM. My point is if we are investing billions to a project we need to make sure the project have the tools to succeed. Currently it’s a fail. Hope this will change.