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Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

The New York Thruway (Interstates 90 and 87) from Buffalo to NYC has been tolled forever. That's well over 500 km. Toronto to Ottawa is only 390 km. The tolls certainly aren't at 407 levels though.

Unless they are evicted in about 3 weeks time. :)

Definitely not like the 407. I spent all of $4 US travelling 67km on it this summer.
 
You can’t spend 80 billion and then charge 45 to Ottawa. Via is currently charging 100 to get to Ottawa and like 150 to Montreal. That’s their sale rates. But you can put it into the universe, say some prayers, wish on a star and just maybe maybe maybe it still won’t happen.

Here's one last bit of data. Distribution of Canada's 343 parliamentary ridings by province per the Elections Canada web site

Alberta - 37
Saskatchewan - 14
Manitoba - 14

Ontario - 122
Quebec - 78


So - by refusing to make an investment in VIA in the Corridor

How many new ridings would a "don't give Central Canada Nice Things" candidate gain, which they don't already have in their pocket?

How many would they not get, that they might need to accumulate 172 seats and win a majority, if they sound hostile to Ontario and Quebec?

This is why I believe that all parties will invest in the Corridor, maybe not as HSR, but to some degree.

- Paul

Maybe the feds will have another announcement to fund something in AB.


As far as fares, my thinking is that the regular fare would likely be more expense than the Via 'milk run', but cheaper than air travel. By the time it opens in 15years, who knows how high it will be. What wee the prices of Via and flying 15 years ago?


Does anyone know when actual construction that will be visible start?
 
A suburban station in Toronto and Montreal (and maybe even Ottawa) makes sense for parking purposes to capture customers coming from outside of easy transit range of the downtown stations. No reason it can't be co-located with YOW / YYZ / YUL though.

Suburban stations make absolutely no sense. If someone is already driving, they're just gonna keep driving in most circumstances. If you include parking, boarding the train, time to take transit at destination and any buffer time, there won't be much of a time difference. This isn't like GO where people will drive to the train to avoid the daily commute. The benefit of HSR would be connecting the downtowns, which is what will make the trains more competitive than flying. If you need to drive to a train station, you can drive to your local rapid transit station and connect to HSR.
 
Suburban stations make absolutely no sense. If someone is already driving, they're just gonna keep driving in most circumstances. If you include parking, boarding the train, time to take transit at destination and any buffer time, there won't be much of a time difference. This isn't like GO where people will drive to the train to avoid the daily commute. The benefit of HSR would be connecting the downtowns, which is what will make the trains more competitive than flying. If you need to drive to a train station, you can drive to your local rapid transit station and connect to HSR.
If we assume they are using the Havelock Sub, and if we assume they will go through the CPKC Agincourt Yard, a mutimodal station around McCowan and Sheppard would make sense. Parking does not need to exist,but it being a transit hub would be ideal..
 
This is probably too ambitious, but the point still stands. Fares need to be competitive. They should also be flat. Dynamic pricing is awful for rail travel and an impediment to improving service. Part of the goal should be to induce demand and stimulate the economies of our biggest cities.

Capacity based dynamic pricing makes sense, it's reasonable for prices to increase if there's a low number of seats left.

Though I agree that it's an impediment to have high fares just because there's a short time left. Especially if there's lots of seats available.
 
One positive aspect of ACs involvement is that it makes it very likely for both Pearson and Dorval to have direct connections to the new HSR.
If only there was an express rail connection from Pearson to Union.

For Montreal, it's pretty straight-forward to extend the REM LRT one more stop from Trudeau to the existing intermodal station on Dorval Circle.
 
You can’t spend 80 billion and then charge 45 to Ottawa. Via is currently charging 100 to get to Ottawa and like 150 to Montreal. That’s their sale rates. But you can put it into the universe, say some prayers, wish on a star and just maybe maybe maybe it still won’t happen.
Why? Not everything has to run a profit. The government should subsidise tickets to encourage ridership.
 
I thought people here were telling me conservatives will support this project. Not with that mindset they won’t.

It is always interesting when people have absolutely no problem subsidizing personal automobiles but completely reject subsidizing trains and public transit. Remember, roads are not profitable.
 
The discussion here seems to revolve around personal opinions and recycliing all the debates we have had since HFR was proposed a decade ago.

Seems to me that we (myself included) are not paying sufficient attention to the Alto package and focussing on the merits as Alto has presented them. (I wonder if some posters actually bothered to read the Alto presentation). Seems to me we should be focussing more specifically on their pitch.

So - I went thru their document again, jotted down some of the key themes as Alto is arguing them, and attempted some critical challenge and fact checking, admittedly with my own opinions added.

My take on Alto's claims.....

1. The current network is disjointed and has not seen significant upgrades since the TCH was built in 1962

Not true, in the sense that since 1962 there has been massive investment in air terminals and in highway transportation - the 416, triple lanes on 401, expressway construction in the cities. The current network moves people fairly efficiently....at current volumes. Alto's pitch is a bit rhetorical.
A more relevant argument might be around how well present capacity matches future demand, and if there is clearly a need for further investment to match future demand, which mode will be cheapest to build beyond today's capacity..
And that leads to a very simple comparison - how much airport and highway construction costs compare to HSR costs, for the same projected capacity growth. This case could be made a lot more clearly and simply than the document, which makes one wonder if they actually have numbers and what these might actually say.

2. HSR links communities

Not true, in the sense that HSR only links the biggest cities and offers only 7 stops. This is fine as a "virtual airport" network, does a great job of moving large numbers of people terminal to terminal as a "backbone". but it does very poor job of serving communities along the way. And, the very small number of stops creates a huge first mile/last mile challenge. Consider the disjointed transportation network that connects Ontario communities to Trudeau and Pearson Airports....HSR does nothing to fix that (although co-locating HSR with regional rail and urban transit does improve on connectivity, also despite adding some recent new airport transit lines, airport connectivity is generally very weak and might be improvale at very low cost eg buses).
There is a second parallel need for regional and local transportation building.... does HSR inhale all the available capital, or will there be a second parallel expense to be budgeted and planned? Canada can only afford so much.

3. Our current air network is plagued by unreliability and is not upwards scalable

Completely true and the prognosis is not appealing. The impact of cancellations, missed connections, and weather disruptions will only multiply as more people travel by air and more flights are required.

4. Highway travel in the corridor is plagued by congestion and is not upwards scalable

Completely true. There is no room to add automobiles as there are zones that are maxxed out and that throttles the whole network. Again, the upwards scalability will be hugely expensive.

5. Travel time saved has an economic and social value

Only true sometimes. Not all customers are time sensitive.... but.... any disruption beyond planned travel time has an economic cost: When grandpa and grandma wait four hours at the airport due to a flight delay, it's an economic impact even when their travel is not time sensistive. The added hour spent in a car when a highway is disrupted is an economic and social impact, even if the driver is simply taking longer to get home and make dinner for their family.

6. HSR will attract 13 x more riders than conventional rail

It's hard to verify this one without seeing more data. It runs contrary to common sense since HSR will likely be priced above conventional rail. Certainly, HSR will outperform today's VIA service, but today's service can be improved at far less cost than full HSR. We all have our opinions, but let's see the hard data.

7. HSR will cover its operating costs

Maybe, this point is debatable and needs more granular data. But... even if true, it's overemphasized. Covering the financing and amortisation cost to invest in HSR matters at least as much, but no promises made here. Ability to raise the capital cost within the nation's GDP over the next 15 years matters more.

8. Current rail service over shared tracks is unsustainable and passenger rail needs its own corridor to remove conflict with freight

Absolutely true - the most important point of all IMHO - but this doesn't justify HSR on its own merit. The original vanilla HFR will address this concern, at much lower cost.

9. HSR has strong support among population

Hard to verify, but we can be sure that the Liberals have polled this to death with the electorate.
Doesn't mean Alto's numbers are truthful - we have three political parties all saying their numbers prove they will form the next government, after all.
The key is, the Cons probably have 80 western seats locked in, and yea-or-nay on HSR won't shift the needle on that one way or the other.
To win a government, the Cons need traction in the 200 seats up for grabs in Ontario and Quebec. I suspect their polling will say that opposing HSR will cost them seats in that region, whereas promising to do something - anything - about VIA's current situation will sit well with voters. Just my speculation.

10. HSR will improve mobility and stimulate productivity and gdp, more choice in where people live and work, catalyst for housing and mobility.

HSR is great if you live or work close to the terminals. But their terminals are going to be located in the center of our most dense cities, with all the first and last mile problems that creates. If you take Alto's line of reasoning, HSR will help Toronto Ottawa and Montreal become more dense and build more housing. Huh? HSR is in many ways just an airport substitute... and If airports did that, we would already have enough housing in those cities.
What will move the needle on housing and community growth? Regional rail and local transit. Again, we need to keep building regional networks. Alto is completely silent on what will happen to VIA's current "local" services, which retain the problem of shared freight trackage. Proposing HSR without an equally well thought out statement of how those services will be invested in and operated is, in my opinion, proof that Alto is about having nice things and not serving any of mobility or community linkage issues.

11 Gen Z is train friendly (to be a bit crass, the people who don't like trains (aka Boomers) are going to die soonest and are not the key market segment)

Undoubtedly, an astute observation, but only in one segment. Certainly true of urban dwellers, especially those who have travelled abroad, and those who are in a no-auto, live downtown mindset. Likely correlates to post secondary education. But ignores the size of the "suburban populations". For many Canadians, their most significant long distance travel needs will still be getting to an airport to fly across the country, or to a southern vacation destination. A large number won't see HSR moving their personal needle much.

12. HSR will reduce ghg

Sort of. The biggest savings is getting people out of cars and airplanes onto a smoky diesel train. Making that diesel train carbon-neutral is the gravy, not the steak. Also, the test is not how much carbon HSR saves, it's how it performs relative to other options within the available investment envelope for carbon reduction. My personal opinion is that improved local transit, replacing regional and local auto use, would remove much more carbon emissions. So those options take priority over HSR if the ccarbon reduction envelope won't achieve both.

To sum up, the arguments that resonate most with me are
- Replacing the current shared-with-freight system with dedicated passenger lines is the paramount consideration, but doing so by full HSR is still open to debate
- Any intercity solution has to be matched with a plan to meet regional and urban transportation investment requirements - HSR can't steal all the funding
- Retaining and building the non-HSR side of VIA is as important as building H(whatever)R
- All political parties will have to give this proposal serious attention, perhaps not to buy in. but certainly to explain their views on doing something, anything, about VIA's current deplorable status
- All political parties ought to declare their plans for highway and airport expansion, and justify why these are cheaper and better than a rail solution

A two-cup-of-coffee commentary
- Paul
 
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It is always interesting when people have absolutely no problem subsidizing personal automobiles but completely reject subsidizing trains and public transit. Remember, roads are not profitable.
I vote liberal but I’m not confused how conservatives think.
 

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