Policing Attitudes

[dt_toronto_geek]

My purpose in mentioning the difficulties of the shopkeepers wasn't to argue for greater latitude for citizens taking on suspected criminals. We see in Florida where that can lead. My point is that these incidents happened because our large and expensive police force is too disengaged and unresponsive to properly meet the needs of citizens victimized by small-time criminals. In the Lucky Moose incident, I believe it took the police awhile to arrive after being told that a suspect was being held for them, despite the fact that the Lucky Moose is probably less than a five minute walk from 52 Division, and that Chinatown is always teeming with people and thus merits regular patrol.

I am by no means advocating or supporting shooting someone in the chest or stabbing someone, but we can't even use, say, pepper spray to subdue an intruder in our own home. Police can take hours to respond, I was robbed & a death threat was uttered in the elevator of my building about 5 or 6 years ago by a - let's just say "someone clearly on drugs and very desperate" and Metro Police finally showed up long after I had given up waiting and gone to bed. The loud thumping on my apartment door is what woke us up 4 or 5 hours later.

 

[Peepers]

In fairness, our laws in Canada are skewed, these occurrences aren't the fault of police. The US has it right here, if threatened they can defend themselves, if someone breaks into a home the homeowner has a right to defend their home. Not here. My building has had a couple of doors kicked in during the day when people are at work & robbed. At a recent meeting that the landlord held for residents with the security company & Metro Police someone asked to what extent can they defend themselves if that were to happen to them and they were home. "None" said the officer, only after one has been assaulted can one fight back - and not until. We have no right to protect our property, "call 9-1-1 immediately" the officer advised.

It is true that we do not enjoy the same protections in law that American's do but what the officer told you was not correct.

From the criminal code of Canada: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-15.html

"Defence of dwelling

40. Every one who is in peaceable possession of a dwelling-house, and every one lawfully assisting him or acting under his authority, is justified in using as much force as is necessary to prevent any person from forcibly breaking into or forcibly entering the dwelling-house without lawful authority.
R.S., c. C-34, s. 40."

I don't know if the same applies in the defense of a business - If so I don't know why Toronto Cops charged the restaurant owner - perhaps they thought carrying a broom was excessive force. Maybe the laws of Canada gave the Police no choice but to lay charges against the restaurateur(although I highly doubt it) but what excuse do cops have for not laying charges against the intruder who not only tried to break into the business but was caught on cam breaking into the owners van? Why were no charges laid against this man?

What the above illustrates is that you cannot believe anything a cop tells you! Most of the time they are lying. Cops feel that they are under no obligation to tell the truth to us.

They want you to believe that you don't have the right to protect your property. They want you to feel week and helpless . Police don't want a well armed and prepared citizenry - they see citizen militias' as a threat (for good reason!). Not surprisingly it was Canadian Police Chiefs who were the biggest proponents of the long-gun registry. If police had their way only cops would carry guns in Canada.

 

[Peepers]

Macleans has a good article about the Police theatrics that we witnessed this past week when Police raided Byron Sonnes former home in search of "suspicious" materials.

Police did not find a bomb or explosive "device". They found what they knew two years ago was buried in the back yard. Potassium Chlorate - a chemical used in fireworks but also has many innocuous uses such as a disinfectant.

Despite claiming that they found a "dangerous" material - Police bomb squad officers seen lowering the "suspicious" canister into a hopper were not wearing any kind of special facial protection (save for Oakley Sunglasses).

Police wanted to make a big show by detonating the "dangerous material" on the Leslie street spit but it does not ignite so easily unless it is first heated up with a bunsen burner and mixed with GUMMEY BEARS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xu2YZzufTM So they had so settle with incinerating the chemical although they could have safely flushed it down the toilet.

We now know that Police acted on information that they had TWO YEARS ago and that they did so one day after the conclusion of Byron Sonne's trial and DURING the Judges deliberation period. In other words the Police attempted to pervert the judicial process by influencing a verdict.

The Maclean article ends with some very good questions:

Quote:

The remains of this new threat will soon be examined, and hopefully we’ll then learn whether Byron Sonne made a bomb or not. If not, here are some new questions:

If the substance was so dangerous, why did the police wait until now to dig it up and destroy it, given that they knew about it for months?

Is it a coincidence that the police staged the raid during Judge Spies’ deliberation?

Is it a coincidence that the individual cop behind the raid is detective Tam Bui, the same cop who led the investigation against Sonne and who will have the most egg on his face (and possibly, the most liability) if the case falls apart?

If Bui is trying to influence the verdict, will there be consequences?

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/04/05/security-theatrics-and-byron-sonne/

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

It is true that we do not enjoy the same protections in law that American's do but what the officer told you was not correct.

From the criminal code of Canada: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-15.html

"Defence of dwelling

40. Every one who is in peaceable possession of a dwelling-house, and every one lawfully assisting him or acting under his authority, is justified in using as much force as is necessary to prevent any person from forcibly breaking into or forcibly entering the dwelling-house without lawful authority.
R.S., c. C-34, s. 40."

I've copied and pasted that onto our Tenant's Association Facebook discussion page, thank you Peepers. The officer who did the security meeting clearly stated to a room full of residents that we cannot protect ourselves in our homes, I'm stunned that he would lie to us all.
I carry pepper spray on me, 95% to protect my dog against an attack from off-leash dogs that the street kids/drug dealers in the neighbourhood have with them - 5% to protect myself which, despite whatever the law may be, I'll proactively protect myself before I'll ever be a victim again - whether that's right or wrong. I keep my keys with the pepper spray attached on the desk in the den by the front door should I ever need it. I feel better knowing I can now use it if I ever had to defend my home, however unlikely.

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

I've copied and pasted that onto our Tenant's Association Facebook discussion page, thank you Peepers. The officer who did the security meeting clearly stated to a room full of residents that we cannot protect ourselves in our homes, I'm stunned that he would lie to us all.
I carry pepper spray on me, 95% to protect my dog against an attack from off-leash dogs that the street kids/drug dealers in the neighbourhood have with them - 5% to protect myself which, despite whatever the law may be, I'll proactively protect myself before I'll ever be a victim again - whether that's right or wrong. I keep my keys with the pepper spray attached on the desk in the den by the front door should I ever need it. I feel better knowing I can now use it if I ever had to defend my home, however unlikely.

I too have been the victim of violent crime, so I say this as much about myself as you, but reading your post makes me glad that it's is still relatively difficult to obtain a gun in Canada.

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

Your actual, legal rights don't matter. If the cop doesn't like what you're doing, he/she will charge you with "obstruct peace officer" and you will be arrested, charged, locked in a holding cell and processed. If they're really pissed at you, they might assault you and charge you with "assault peace officer" or "resist arrest". The arrest/processing can take the better part of a day if they so choose. Then you'll have several court appearances for which you will need to hire a lawyer and take time off work. Ultimately, the crown will offer to withdraw the charges in exchange for your undertaking to "keep the peace". You'll be out of pocket a couple of grand and the police officer will make a few hundred dollars extra for his/her court time. If you are determined to proceed to a trial, it will be your word against the police officer's, and the police habitually perjure themselves on the stand and falsify their notes and are only called on it in the rarest of circumstances.
This is the "freedom" we brag about to the rest of the world.

The above post is from a different thread a few months ago, but I thought I should post it here with a link to the Star's series on police perjury, which features the following passage:

“It's the coverup that kills,†said an Ontario judge, who requested anonymity to preserve the appearance of impartiality necessary for his job.

Police officers have a difficult job and usually know who the criminals are, the judge said, but some play hunches to bust suspects, then “make stuff up†to patch their investigations.

“Police will end up lying on the witness stand. That's just a reality ... We (judges) know this happens. We talk about it all the time.â€

 

[TrickyRicky]

The Toronto police are far from perfect but I'm sorry the tone of this thread verges on ridiculous. While I believe it is undeniable that the police wield, even abuse, their power to infuence political decision-making and protect their own the question is who doesn't? And furthermore, on a relative scale Toronto police are in my opinion the most docile and least corrupt I have been exposed to. Forget international examples that expose a vast difference, just use comparisons like the police force of Vancouver or Montreal or the RCMP. Have you ever dealt with or seen the police force of Vancouver in action?

On the other hand it is undeniable to me that the police are over paid. Second, while I find the faith of people like Admiral Beez admirable, I think it fair to point out that no the police do not stand between you and the safety of your family. They just do not. Anyone who has ever had to protect themselves, their family, or their property knows exactly what I am saying. Even if the Police mean well they do not preform this function and are not interested in preforming this function. The goal of police is to enforce the law, gather evidence, and detain those who break the law. To suggest that the Police protect your family is to buy into their propaganda. The people who protect your family are you, your family, your neighbours, and your community. The guy who owns the convenience store in your neighbourhood does more to protect your family than the entire complement of officers at your local police station, and he gets paid nothing to do so, and exposes himself to even greater personal risk.

 

[brockm]

The Toronto police are far from perfect but I'm sorry the tone of this thread verges on ridiculous. While I believe it is undeniable that the police wield, even abuse, their power to infuence political decision-making and protect their own the question is who doesn't? And furthermore, on a relative scale Toronto police are in my opinion the most docile and least corrupt I have been exposed to. Forget international examples that expose a vast difference, just use comparisons like the police force of Vancouver or Montreal or the RCMP. Have you ever dealt with or seen the police force of Vancouver in action?

You know, I sure didn't feel that way when the Toronto police forcibly and illegally searched me the Monday after the G20 because I was wearing a black t-shirt walking home through the downtown. I refused consent for the search, they told me they didn't give a shit whether I consented or not, proceeded to restrain me, removed my bag from me and searched it without probable cause.

My complaint to the TPS is unanswered to this day.

Cursory searches on YouTube -- and indeed the evidence collected by the Canadian Civil Liberties Association -- reveal that constitutional violations were rampant, in particular illegal, random, suspicion-less searches.

After that experience, my opinion of the Toronto Police is that they're nothing more than a bunch of jackboot fascists. For those who would say it's a few bad apples, I'd ask where the good apples are to whistleblow on the bad apples. There were about fifty riot police in the vicinity of where I illegally searched. Not one of them intervened. The supervisor I complained to gave me a blank stare, turned and walked away.

Fuck the Toronto Police. Fuck them all.

The funny thing is, I grew up in a very conservative family and was what you consider one of those law and order types. The sort of person who would have supported mandatory minimum sentences, etc.

The interesting thing is, instead of getting more conservative as I've gotten older, I've gotten more anti-statist. And this experience was certainly one that further opened my eyes to the evil of state power and the slow atrophy of our civil rights.

When I see the so called "good majority" of police step forward and testify against these well documented and obvious civil rights violations, I'll attenuate my views. But that has not happened. In fact, if not for the Toronto Star's persistent reporting on the matter, it doesn't even seem likely that the few criminal charges that were laid ever would have been taken seriously by the SIU.

So I say only one thing to people: video tape the police. Always. Get pulled over by the police? Record them with your cellphone. See someone pulled over while walking by, stop and record them. That's what I do.

 

[AKS]

So I say only one thing to people: video tape the police. Always. Get pulled over by the police? Record them with your cellphone. See someone pulled over while walking by, stop and record them. That's what I do.

I don't think this will work any longer. I've read that they have a law against video taping / recording the police. So if it's illegal, the tape will be worthless in court and you get indicted for breaking the law.

Police do tell lies. Though they're sworn to tell the truth and uphold the law when they become police officers. Somehow what's sworn and what happens afterwards seem different.

 

[Peepers]

My complaint to the TPS is unanswered to this day.

.

My advice to you would be to send your complaint to the Office of the Independent Police Review Director "OIPRD" https://www.oiprd.on.ca/cms/ as well as to the Ontario Ombudsman - Andre Marin https://www.oiprd.on.ca/cms/. Andre Marin is not afraid to take on the corrupt cops.

If you sent your complaint directly to the Toronto Police Service you will not get any response at all. Bill Blair doesn't even respond to requests for information from from the SIU. Bill Blair has not taken independent action against ANY of the dozens of cops engaged in illegal actions during the G20.

Likewise sending your complaint to the Police Service Board - the civilian "watchdog" organization is also fruitless since the Board Chair - Alok Mukherjee is nothing but a lapdog apologist for Blair.

I agree with everything in your post. This is not a problem of just a few bad apples. Most cops are overpaid lying thugs

 

[Peepers]

I don't think this will work any longer. I've read that they have a law against video taping / recording the police. So if it's illegal, the tape will be worthless in court and you get indicted for breaking the law.

Police do tell lies. Though they're sworn to tell the truth and uphold the law when they become police officers. Somehow what's sworn and what happens afterwards seem different.

Actually it is not against the law to video record cops in public but cops would like the public to think it is and increasingly cops are harassing people who assert their rights.

This topic was covered in another thread (which was the genesis of this thread). A forum member was prevented by a group of arrogant thuggish cops outside 51 division from taking pictures. You can see my comments in that thread:

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/18040-Legality-of-Witnessing-an-Arrest-Legal-Issue

The problem is this. Even though you have the LEGAL right to record or photograph how do you assert this right when dealing with an organization that is essentially criminal?

Remember, in any encounter with cops they have the ability to escalate even a minor situation to the point where you are lying dead in the morgue (look at all the examples in Toronto in just the last year). Police cover their asses by lying and so they can and DO get away with murder!

The Toronto Star has an excellent series this week on "Police who lie". Cops have been caught lying under oath in countless cases across Canada but not one cop has been charged with perjury! Anyone else caught lying under oath on the stand would face criminal charges and prison time but not our police.

Police are a lawless group operating above the law!

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...lering-at-police-a-man-was-beaten-and-tasered

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

Barrel suckers, won't you please come out to defend your beloved barrel-wielders?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/g20-report-blasts-police-for-unlawful-arrests-civil-rights-violations/article2434441/

The poor jackbooted thugs are under attack from all sides, even as they valiantly stand between us and the bubble-blowing terrorists.

 

[nfitz]

Hopefully our esteemed mayor will be reading the report, and then asking Chief Blair (who has refused again to apologise) to resign.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

You know, I sure didn't feel that way when the Toronto police forcibly and illegally searched me the Monday after the G20 because I was wearing a black t-shirt walking home through the downtown. I refused consent for the search, they told me they didn't give a shit whether I consented or not, proceeded to restrain me, removed my bag from me and searched it without probable cause.

My complaint to the TPS is unanswered to this day.

I was also illegally searched by three officers on Yonge Street. I was wearing a shirt with a white tee underneath, shorts, sneakers, sports socks and had my knapsack on me as I always do. I took a walk down Yonge Street with my dog as did thousands of others on the Sunday, the day after all the major trouble broke to see what the state of Yonge Street downtown was like. I was on the west side of the street, we crossed when the signal turned right where the parking entrance is to the Eaton Centre at Shuter St. and three officers came toward me and asked where I was going. I told them I was just walking to Queen St. then back home and was checking out the damage done the day before. They asked to search my bag and I said no. As soon as I said no they spread out, circled me and their posture changed as did their arms; they took a pose to intimidate me. When asked to hand over my bag again I reiterated that I'm doing nothing wrong and I refuse to hand over my bag. One officer stepped a little closer and said something like "we can do this here or we can take you away and search it, it's your choice". At that point I started to panic as all I could think about was what would happen to my dog if they took me away so I took my knapsack off my shoulders and let them search it. The guy who went through it was a mega assh*le, he went through every compartment, even the little tiny one's that are only big enough to hold an iPhone or lighter. He briefly looked at some papers that I had in there, he questioned me on my anxiety medication, asked where my wallet was (I don't have one - everything is in my bag), asked me my address TWICE during the search - meanwhile the other two officers had flanked me on each side. These idiots clearly had nothing better to do than harass, with absolutely no reason to do so. I felt embarrassed, violated, I was shaky, intimidated and damn angry all at once. Once done he handed my bag back and said something like "alright then, you be on your way". Just before this I looked and NONE of the three officers were wearing any form of ID, no police ID numbers, no names - nothing. I looked because I was going to get the number of the one who was rifling through my bag and report him but saw he had none so I checked the other two when I stood up (I was kneeled down with the officer who was going through my bag) while trying to keep control of my hyper dog. I would NEVER have agreed to a bag search if I didn't have my dog with me, I would have let them take me wherever they wanted to search me but what would they do or how would they handle my 55 pound hyper Labrador Retriever? That was the only reason I didn't let them take me away. So I left, shakily walked down to Queen St., crossed and walked back up Yonge on the other side (east side). As I approached Shuter St. I remember not wanting to look directly across the street at those goofs so I was watching them in the corner of my eye and they were busy doing the same thing, this time with two younger girls (late teens or in their 20's).
As I continued walking home I got angrier and angrier from what had happened. Later I turned on the CP24 or whatever it was back then to see if anything was going on and saw what was happening over at the detention centre and finally had to turn it off I was so disgusted. It's been nearly two years, that's pretty much all I remember about what happened but I still vividly remember that feeling of being violated, and the anger.
I had no officer ID numbers or names so I never reported the incident but I told friends about it and I believe I posted the experience here shortly after it happened on an appropriate thread.

 

[Peepers]

The CBC is just reporting what looks like a BOMBSHELL announcement.

It appears that senior police COMMANDERS are going to be CHARGED!

I don't know how Blair can be allowed to keep his job after this. He had two years to take action against his senior officers but he failed and it was only after the release of the McNeily report that action is being taken.

Blair has failed his sworn oath to uphold the law. He must be fired and charged under the police act with breach of trust!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/05/17/g20-police-charges.html