Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[gweed123]

Electrifying the GO network would be the best thing for Transit City, because it would eliminate a lot of the need for it to balance local demands with long-haul demands, because the long-haul would be carried by GO.

The LRT lines would then be free to act as they do in almost every other large city in the world: as feeder lines, and as lines that 'connect the dots' or 'fill the gaps' left in the primary network's layout.

And I challenge the idea that electrifying GO service (which I think should be referred to as GO-REX (Regional Express), which just sounds cool) wouldn't significantly benefit the core. On the contrary, it would be the best thing for the core. It would be better than building the DRL in fact, because you would get a multitude of different options. Dundas West-Bloor Station would have 2 GO-REX lines and a subway line serving it. Liberty Village Station would have 3 GO-REX lines and a major streetcar line. Main-Danforth Station would have 2 GO-REX lines, a subway line, and a streetcar line.

These have the potential to be major hubs, especially if a few bus routes are rerouted to them. A bus that ends up at Dundas West station, the rider has 4 options for getting downtown. The combined frequency on the GO-REX at Dundas West-Bloor would be around 5 minutes, given that the two lines (Milton and Georgetown) would each be running about 10 minute frequencies. That's as good as a subway, and they both go much further out than a DRL ever would.

Consider that each of these GO-REX lines has the potential to carry between 15,000 and 20,000 pphpd during peak, and that $4 billion suddenly becomes a wiser investment than a couple LRT lines lines whos combined ridership wouldn't even total one of those GO-REX lines.

 

[kEiThZ]

Electrifying GO and adding stations inside the 416 would also remove a lot of the demand for additional subways.

 

[sixrings]

There would have to be a significant amount of addtional stations on each route... CNE, Bloor, Eglinton, Lawrence, Sheppard.... How much extra time would this ADD to each line?????? I think alot of 905 would protest! Their trips would be longer and would their be seats by the time the train got into the 416? Would there need to be a different lay out on some of the trains that were better suited to standing up? What would the frequency be on each line? What is the fare structure? If the fare is 3$ or the same as a metro pass almost the entire city would be trying to get to a GO line? what would the implications be to the subway network? THE ONE THing I deffinately like about GO getting more funding (with the idea that Toronto gets more stations) is that the CITY CORE would be really where people would be being directed. Hopefully that would cause more businesses to consider moving back to the city.

 

[rbt]

rbt:

I think they already took the current round of Union Station redo into account in the report - any real capacity expansion for that bottleneck will require additional changes at the station, to which there are no publically available cost information.

Yes. Lake Shore is 12 minutes today and very much at capacity.

The rebuild, signalling, etc. get us down to about 6 minutes on select lines (which I assume will be Lake Shore). This will be at capacity in 2020 depending on job growth, energy pricing, etc; but there is a capacity benefit to today's expansion of Union; estimates are double capacity but may be different. Morning rush approaches 8 minute frequencies for Lake Shore West, so 6 minutes seems doable with the additional people moving capacity (elevators, escalators, stairs, halls, etc.).

Electrification of just Lake Shore and Georgetown is only about $1B since both corridors have been bought and upgraded via other projects. Just a few things to cleanup for electrical grounding and a handful (28) bridges to rebuild or adjust.


Another doubling around 2020, bringing Lake Shore to the 3 minute frequency mark for a bi-level, will require a very expensive project be started within a decade; most likely tunnelling Lake Shore and multiple stops.

This is a rehashing of my earlier comment. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant?

 

[gweed123]

There would have to be a significant amount of addtional stations on each route... CNE, Bloor, Eglinton, Lawrence, Sheppard.... How much extra time would this ADD to each line?????? I think alot of 905 would protest! Their trips would be longer and would their be seats by the time the train got into the 416? Would there need to be a different lay out on some of the trains that were better suited to standing up? What would the frequency be on each line? What is the fare structure? If the fare is 3$ or the same as a metro pass almost the entire city would be trying to get to a GO line? what would the implications be to the subway network? THE ONE THing I deffinately like about GO getting more funding (with the idea that Toronto gets more stations) is that the CITY CORE would be really where people would be being directed. Hopefully that would cause more businesses to consider moving back to the city.

1) The 905 would get greatly increased frequencies.
2) Electrification does not preclude express trains (bypassing 416 stations).
3) Electrification does not preclude short-turn trains, which stay exclusively inside the 416.
4) Yes, the trains would be a different layout.
5) The fare structure would be very similar to what it currently is.
6) What's wrong with the entire city trying to get on a GO line? Surely 5 increased capacity GO lines can handle more people than 2.5 subway lines currently do. Transit users are transit users. If it's more convenient for them to use GO, great, less cars on the road.

Think outside the box.

 

[rbt]

There would have to be a significant amount of addtional stations on each route... CNE, Bloor, Eglinton, Lawrence, Sheppard.... How much extra time would this ADD to each line?????? I think alot of 905 would protest!

If it was announced or studied all at once, sure. GO doesn't work that way.

Each station would be announced individually and added to the diesel network.

Electrification would be announced as a time-saver with no new station additions.


Really, the $7B electrification project is half funded and well underway. Georgetown corridor, Union trainshed improvement (grounding/wire clearance), Union corridor signalling, corridor purchases, numerous additional track pieces, grade separation of various rail-rail diamonds, etc.


Electrification was taken to high capacity corridors and bundled lots of things beneficial to the diesel network.

Nobody even blinks when GO buys another 30 km of rail corridor or announced they will be rebuilding a specific bridge. They won't notice when GO adds a new stop on the line each year for 3 years either, particularly if they can add a couple new train runs in the same year.

 

[MisterF]

There would have to be a significant amount of addtional stations on each route... CNE, Bloor, Eglinton, Lawrence, Sheppard.... How much extra time would this ADD to each line?????? I think alot of 905 would protest! Their trips would be longer and would their be seats by the time the train got into the 416? Would there need to be a different lay out on some of the trains that were better suited to standing up? What would the frequency be on each line? What is the fare structure? If the fare is 3$ or the same as a metro pass almost the entire city would be trying to get to a GO line? what would the implications be to the subway network? THE ONE THing I deffinately like about GO getting more funding (with the idea that Toronto gets more stations) is that the CITY CORE would be really where people would be being directed. Hopefully that would cause more businesses to consider moving back to the city.

Express and local trains solves the too many stations issue. That's not a hypothetical concept, GO is already using it. And yes it would take riders from the subways, which is kind of the point. The subways are overcrowded and people using GO would free the subways for for short distance travel, which is what they're best at.

 

[Paleo]

Metrolinx forecast 7,200 as the peak AM load. This is more than the existing Sheppard subway, and almost as much as the Yonge extension. For total ridership it's higher than the Yonge extension - presumably because of the higher loads outside the peak hour.

It's from the 2021 forecast and the TTC EA shows similar NB numbers. The Metrolinx 2031 forecast was in the 5,500 pph range.

GO-REX would definitely take a big bite out of RT demand within the 416, especially when it comes to some of the suburban proposals and perhaps outer parts of the existing system. Sheppard would look very overbuilt (as if it weren't already) and Eglinton as well. The exceptions might be the Yonge line and central portions of the BD line and theoretical DRL.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Express and local trains solves the too many stations issue. That's not a hypothetical concept, GO is already using it. And yes it would take riders from the subways, which is kind of the point. The subways are overcrowded and people using GO would free the subways for for short distance travel, which is what they're best at.

The double decker trains can be express that serve the 905, and then go directly to Union, and a GO Local service with single decker trains can serve the 416, with one 905 station at each end to switch to Express or Local.

As for frequency the airport route and the Mississauga route would diverge at Dundas West, but when they converge in the opposite direction south of Bloor, that section would get twice the frequency which works out for the best since that's the more heavily trafficked area.

And at Main Street the tracks east of it can be transferred to GO, as well as the SRT corridor and have that part of the GO Network instead, where it will also converge with the local route coming from Pickering.

As for fares just charge a little bit more in the 416 area and have 2 separate metropasses that either cover that GO an one that doesn't.

 

[kEiThZ]

GO-REX would definitely take a big bite out of RT demand within the 416, especially when it comes to some of the suburban proposals and perhaps outer parts of the existing system. Sheppard would look very overbuilt (as if it weren't already) and Eglinton as well. The exceptions might be the Yonge line and central portions of the BD line and theoretical DRL.

GO-REX might kill most of the suburban LRT schemes save Eglinton. Consider Sheppard for example. Give Stouffvile a REX service and fare integration and most riders along that corridor would certainly not ride to Don Mills. And you might even get riders that travel in the counter-peak direction towards Agincourt. That changed pattern may well remove the rationale for an immediate LRT or subway extension other than for a hub connection (at Agincourt). With REX on Stouffville and Barrie lines, I'd suggest that the Sheppard subway then only needs to be extended to Agincourt in the East and Sheppard West in the West. With fare integration, STC would lose its importance as a hub. Agincourt would become a far more important hub in northern Scarborough and buses could be re-directed there.

There would have to be a significant amount of addtional stations on each route... CNE, Bloor, Eglinton, Lawrence, Sheppard.... How much extra time would this ADD to each line?????? I think alot of 905 would protest! Their trips would be longer and would their be seats by the time the train got into the 416? Would there need to be a different lay out on some of the trains that were better suited to standing up? What would the frequency be on each line? What is the fare structure? If the fare is 3$ or the same as a metro pass almost the entire city would be trying to get to a GO line? what would the implications be to the subway network? THE ONE THing I deffinately like about GO getting more funding (with the idea that Toronto gets more stations) is that the CITY CORE would be really where people would be being directed. Hopefully that would cause more businesses to consider moving back to the city.

This is all easily addressable. To start with, we aren't talking TTC style stop spacing. We're talking a handful of additional stations. But electrification can make up for some of the lost time of the additional stops. More than that, I'd argue that most GO riders might easily agree to a 5-10 minute longer ride in exchange for more regular service (like 15 min frequencies).

On train layouts. Perhaps a different layout might be needed. Or perhaps not. But it's not that big a deal. And there's experts who can provide that advice.

As for fare integration. At the basic level there's Preso, which is more payment integration than fare integration. I'd argue that the TTC needs to combine the subway and GO network so that fare by distance can be implemented. Leave the bus and streetcars as flat fare services.

 

[gweed123]

The double decker trains can be express that serve the 905, and then go directly to Union, and a GO Local service with single decker trains can serve the 416, with one 905 station at each end to switch to Express or Local.

I thought that part of the move to electrification was that the trainsets themselves weren't dependent on 1 locomotive pulling all the others along. Wouldn't using existing bi-levels sort of defeat that purpose? I'd be more inclined to use the existing engines and bi-levels for trips from the end of the electrified track out to places like Kitchener, Niagara Falls, and Cobourg. Run 6-car trainsets with 1hr frequencies on those lines beyond the electrifed points (I would imagine Georgetown, Hamilton, and Oshawa would be the terminus points of the electrified rail).

As for frequency the airport route and the Mississauga route would diverge at Dundas West, but when they converge in the opposite direction south of Bloor, that section would get twice the frequency which works out for the best since that's the more heavily trafficked area.

I would imagine that at Dundas West there would be a triple convergence: Milton, Airport, and Georgetown. At Liberty Village you would have a quadruple convergence: Milton, Airport, Georgetown, and Barrie (although the airport one would likely be express and not stop at that station, only at Dundas West and the airport).

As for fares just charge a little bit more in the 416 area and have 2 separate metropasses that either cover that GO an one that doesn't.

I think in the medium-near future the Metropass should be abolished in favour of a Presto card. That card would function as a default Metropass, whereby you continue to pay for each trip until you reach the monthly cost of a Metropass, and then after that your TTC trips are free for the rest of the month. Your trip count would reset on the first of each month. As for GO, the base fare would be $3 for anyone starting in Toronto, and it would go up based on how far into the 905 you go.

 

[sixrings]

As for fare integration. At the basic level there's Preso, which is more payment integration than fare integration. I'd argue that the TTC needs to combine the subway and GO network so that fare by distance can be implemented. Leave the bus and streetcars as flat fare services.

Although I think the fares should be closer to TTC which would cause people to use the service. I do think at the same time there should be a slight premium to ride the GO. Emphesis on SLIGHT! The reason is that essentially GO would become the most desired service because it would be the quickest even over greater distances. For instance right now as a TTC supporter my list of transit modes from top to bottom is 1. SUBWAY 2. Streetcar 3. BUS (actually if I can walk Id prefer walking over the BUS)... In the future I always anticipated 1. SUBWAY 2. LRT 3. Streetcar 4. BUS/WALK.... In your system which sounds good on paper 1. GO 2. SUBWAY 3. LRT 4. STreetcar 5. BUS/WALK. I guess what Im suggesting is not only distance should be considered in price but also the quality of service. Example, if I ride a bus to ottawa its cheaper then a train which is also cheaper then a plane.

 

[sixrings]

I think in the medium-near future the Metropass should be abolished in favour of a Presto card. That card would function as a default Metropass, whereby you continue to pay for each trip until you reach the monthly cost of a Metropass, and then after that your TTC trips are free for the rest of the month. Your trip count would reset on the first of each month. As for GO, the base fare would be $3 for anyone starting in Toronto, and it would go up based on how far into the 905 you go.

This would cause the houses in walking proximity of GO lines to at least double in value... Im not saying thats a bad thing but let me know before implimenting this magical formula so I can buy some investment property.

 

[gweed123]

This would cause the houses in walking proximity of GO lines to at least double in value... Im not saying thats a bad thing but let me know before implimenting this magical formula so I can buy some investment property.

Considering that many of the properties that abut rail lines in Toronto are industrial/brownfield lands, they would be perfect opportunities for redevelopment. Just look at Liberty Village, nearly all of that is on former industrial lands.

Converting these GO lines presents a rare opportunity to truly do neighbourhood master plans for the areas surrounding current and future GO stations. Really maximize that land use/transportation planning relationship.

 

[sixrings]

Considering that many of the properties that abut rail lines in Toronto are industrial/brownfield lands, they would be perfect opportunities for redevelopment. Just look at Liberty Village, nearly all of that is on former industrial lands.

Converting these GO lines presents a rare opportunity to truly do neighbourhood master plans for the areas surrounding current and future GO stations. Really maximize that land use/transportation planning relationship.

I agree. Places like Weston would or could become Hot spots... A quick LRT ride to either spadina line or Yonge line... but also quick ride to bloor or downtown.... My suggestion is that if a person lived in weston his ticket downtown via GO/rex should be about 4$ with the ability to transfer downtown onto streetcars or subway for free. But if the rider chose to LRT and subway it to union it should cost the rider 3$.... Does that make sense... Either way places like WESTON which are a relative disaster right now would see huge redevelopment and huge price increases.

Heres a Question to you and KEITZ about presto and fare by distance. What would the price be to get downtown via Subway from Sheppard west station? In contrast what would be the price to get downtown via GO train from Sheppard West station? is there a difference?