Toronto Ontario Square and Canada Square | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

[jn_12]

We also need to consider that something grand would become a tourist attraction. As mentioned, once the West 8 plan for the waterfront is built, people (Torontonians) will automatically flock to it. But, will outsiders come to visit it like people visit Barcelona's Ramblas? Probably not, because apart from the nice stroll, there's nothing really to keep them down there. I don't know how I feel about aquariums, but it's as good an idea as any and really could be the jewel in the waterfront. Is Harbourfront Centre the right place for it? Could we build something that juts out into the lake?

Let's face it, if we want to bring in some tourists we need to keep our attractions near the downtown. The Science Centre and the Zoo both suffer from being too far away from downtown, and not easily accessible. Putting a top notch attraction in a centralized location like the waterfront at least makes it accessible to all.

 

[taal]

Hmm, well this is what I envisioned anyway.

(Obviously with a not-Chicago's aquarium, aquarium.)

Well that I don't mind at all

But at the same time I agree with the above comment. At all cost I'd really like this to stay downtown - that's probably close enough if the streetcar line gets built as it's suppose to be but I wouldn't venture farther east.

West-8's plan as someone else mentioned in it self will become a tourist attraction. We do not need large commercial ventures to attract people to the waterfront, at least in the summer. I think that's the key point I was trying to convey. The water it self and the beauty of the architecture will attract on it's own right.

Regarding Chicago ... and quite a few other american cities I think they have the legs up on us when it comes to a few things:
1) Landscaping in the downtown core.
2) # of museums and other attractions downtown.

That would be it though, keep in mind we have a leg up on them though
1) Our neighborhoods and just how dynamic they are ... I've been to many places all over the world and trust me, there is something special to be said about that.

Still though, we have a long way to go ... not based on any "world class" comparison but just simply looking at the land we have left to develop and the area's to beautify.

ps - Don't you find it hard to talk about an aquarium even though the chance we'll get one is so small ... I mean there's been talk about it for so long now. Although some argue it would be cheesy who cares! A lot of people would love it - and it would attract all of them downtown ... a perfect idea! Also if the *atheletes* village is to be built it better be downtown ... although that's a completely different topic.

 

[toraerach]

Let's face it, if we want to bring in some tourists we need to keep our attractions near the downtown. The Science Centre and the Zoo both suffer from being too far away from downtown, and not easily accessible. Putting a top notch attraction in a centralized location like the waterfront at least makes it accessible to all.

One of the greatest draws for tourists in Toronto are not buildings and static intitutions like the zoo, the science centre, or a potential aquarium, but events. Pride, Caribana, Nuit Blanche, etc. bring hundreds of thousands of people from around the world here. I'd rather see more of the Waterfront dedicated to usable event space than an institution that could be anywhere in the city. Once the Waterfront is more developed as a cohesive space, I think many groups will want to use it for their events both big (imagine a waterfront festival of some sort that stretches down the entire length of Queen's Quay) and small (cultural groups using a park space, this square, the Island). As long as there is always something happening on the Waterfront, tourists will be drawn down there.

The Exhibition grounds, though a little further out, provide a better potential space for a year round attraction than this location. It already has monumental architecture, and has a much larger undeveloped area to work with. Imagine all of that parking replaced by a Navy Pier-esque permanent amusement park, perhaps integrated with Ontario Place which itself has a large parking lot that could also be redeveloped.

And while I like the proposal for Canada Square in general, there are some aspects that could really make or break the space. The platform space over the water is underwhelming at best. How the buildings are used will also determine it`s success. We don`t want this to turn into the Waterfront`s food court filled with fast food chains. The inner square has a lot of potential, but if that`s not exploited it will be a huge loss - temporary art installations, street performers, etc. There seems to be a lack of seating. I`ll agree with a lot of you in saying that there should be some recognition of Canada in the square - a column with Simcoe on top for example - but it shouldn`t be the centre of attention. I think the greatest monument to Canada here is the Canadian people themselves. Allow the space to showcase our creativity and our vibrancy. Don`t force the kind of patriotic displays that are characteristic of Ottawa (which, for all it`s draw as a tourist destination remains extraordinarily boring IMHO).

I don`t know, I can see how people find it`s built form lacking, and I`ll admit it could be better, but I also think this space - as I`ve said - has a lot of potential as a people place. The success of Canada Square will not be found in grand gestures towards nationalist pride, but in its use as a civic space.

 

[jn_12]

One of the greatest draws for tourists in Toronto are not buildings and static intitutions like the zoo, the science centre, or a potential aquarium, but events. Pride, Caribana, Nuit Blanche, etc. bring hundreds of thousands of people from around the world here. I'd rather see more of the Waterfront dedicated to usable event space than an institution that could be anywhere in the city. Once the Waterfront is more developed as a cohesive space, I think many groups will want to use it for their events both big (imagine a waterfront festival of some sort that stretches down the entire length of Queen's Quay) and small (cultural groups using a park space, this square, the Island). As long as there is always something happening on the Waterfront, tourists will be drawn down there.

The Exhibition grounds, though a little further out, provide a better potential space for a year round attraction than this location. It already has monumental architecture, and has a much larger undeveloped area to work with. Imagine all of that parking replaced by a Navy Pier-esque permanent amusement park, perhaps integrated with Ontario Place which itself has a large parking lot that could also be redeveloped.

And while I like the proposal for Canada Square in general, there are some aspects that could really make or break the space. The platform space over the water is underwhelming at best. How the buildings are used will also determine it`s success. We don`t want this to turn into the Waterfront`s food court filled with fast food chains. The inner square has a lot of potential, but if that`s not exploited it will be a huge loss - temporary art installations, street performers, etc. There seems to be a lack of seating. I`ll agree with a lot of you in saying that there should be some recognition of Canada in the square - a column with Simcoe on top for example - but it shouldn`t be the centre of attention. I think the greatest monument to Canada here is the Canadian people themselves. Allow the space to showcase our creativity and our vibrancy. Don`t force the kind of patriotic displays that are characteristic of Ottawa (which, for all it`s draw as a tourist destination remains extraordinarily boring IMHO).

I don`t know, I can see how people find it`s built form lacking, and I`ll admit it could be better, but I also think this space - as I`ve said - has a lot of potential as a people place. The success of Canada Square will not be found in grand gestures towards nationalist pride, but in its use as a civic space.

I've worked for both the City of Toronto's Tourism Department, and the Province's Ministry of Tourism (with the people who set tourism policy province wide) so i don't need a lecture on what attracts tourists, especially when you're wrong. While I admit Carabana attracts outsiders, as well as Pride Week, these are one off annual events that tourism industries cannot be sustained upon. Not only that, but these are niche events. The vast majority of the world is not gay, nor are they Caribbean, not do they feel a strong enough connection that they wish to travel to attend these events. Nuit Blanche and Luminato are very young and practically unknown outside of Toronto, and are sold as local events. People are not flying in from various corners of the globe to attend these events in even small numbers. In fact, there are few festivals in the world that do this. If we look at examples of strong tourism industries around the world, you'll find they are all attraction based. Paris, London, New York... they all have top notch cultural and entertainment attractions. I've seen the stats for every attractions in this city and the province, and I've sat in on meetings with the brightest tourism minds in the province, and what I'm saying is no different from their own views and the numbers that support them.

And the reason places like the zoo and science do not succeed to a greater degree is because of location location location. If we put the ROM in North York we'd see a huge difference in attendance. Us the location of the waterfront to its full advantage and you would probably see an improvement in the city's tourism industry. I should also add that I agree that the CNE grounds would be fantastic for year-round opportunities, but until people get over the CNE, it's not going to happen. Too many people are attached to a glorified provincial fair, for us to convert anything on the CNE grounds into permanent attractions.


As for the design of the square, this is the centre of the central waterfront... Need I say more? Ottawa is not boring because of the grand displays of patriotism. It's boring because it's a city that shuts down when the bureaucrats go home. Combine the elements of grandeur in Ottawa with the culture and entertainment value of Toronto and you have a world class city. Seriously. Creating a grander vision for the waterfront that combines the fantastic elements of the West 8 plan with some larger visions for attractions that Torontonians and outsiders can enjoy, would be a step in the right direction toward that "world class" label.

 

[Urban Shocker]

As lesouris points out, people are drawn to cultural centres because of what's happening. Since it was launched in the mid-70s, Harbourfront has been such a place. The Power Plant is one of Canada's top contemporary art galleries, the Worldstage dance/theatre series continues at the Enwave, Nextsteps is in the Fleck dance theatre, and there are gallery shows in several other Harbourfront venues all year long. For people interested in the arts scene there's lots to see there, and places like this give our city international prestige. It is hardly the cultural wasteland, at this time of year, that some here make it out to be.

 

[taal]

Yes I agree, actually in terms of attendance - from what I recall the Harbourfront center is one of the most visited sites in all of Canada (not sure how accurate that was though).

So we do have attractions already ... but if it can be done right I agree more should be built. More should be built in downtown Toronto in general but I guess the waterfront is just as good as any other place downtown.

I think locating the ZOO downtown wouldn't work ... at least not the way the Toronto zoo is laid out. The Toronto Zoo is actually once of the largest in the world, both in terms of the area it covers and the number of animals. Unlike other zoos it's more reminiscent of a zoo/park i.e. it's not very dense. I like it that way, it's one of it's main attractions.

If only they could move the science center downtown. That would be the best thing for Toronto and the science center. I've been to many many "science center" like facilities across the world and then one in Toronto really ranks up their near the top. But due to it's location I'm sure that hurts it's attendance figures quite a lot.

 

[marcus_a_j]

Why would they move the Science Centre? If tourists want to go they will. There's decent public transit to get there and relatively easy to get to by driving. Also, the architecture and they way it is situated going down into the Valley makes its location quite unique. It's definitely something that should not be moved.

As for Canada Square, I don't have any suggestions as to what can be located there as a permanent attraction, especially during winter time, but I read an article on Yahoo! Sports discussing the recent Winter Classis at Wrigley Field in Chicago and the writer was suggesting venues in each NHL city where such a game can be played for the annual game. I thought what about a temporary NHL size rink with removable stands here. Ideally they would actually play on the Lake, but that wouldn't be feasible. There would be great shots of the game with the skyline in the background. It would be a cool setting for the game and sure to fill all of the seats no matter how many there would be.

BTW, the writer suggested the Skydome with the roof open as the venue for Toronto.

 

[AKS]

I agree that science center should be moved. I sometimes do want to visit it but because it's not that convenient I seldom bother to go. I have also sometimes wanted to visit the Zoo too but it's too far that I won't bother. GTA is so large, it takes too much time to travel from one place to another. However I wouldn't know where the Zoo should belong since it needs a large area. So I guess where it is, is fine. But we should have an aquarium. Every city I've gone to has an aquarium or amusement park with aquarium of some sort except ours. It would be nice to have an indoor ice rink/amusement area all year round too. The COEX mall at Seoul was pretty nice with mall and aquarium incorporated. I also liked Tai Ko Mall with the ice rink and mall in HK too. Waterfront wise, Odaiba in Tokyo is a pretty nice place to hang out too. People go dating there. It's by the water and there's convention center, waterpark, fuji tv station, ferris wheel, etc. But I guess their winter is more milder there so people still go even during winter. But they have indoor places as well as outdoors so people go all year round.

 

[toraerach]

I've worked for both the City of Toronto's Tourism Department, and the Province's Ministry of Tourism (with the people who set tourism policy province wide) so i don't need a lecture on what attracts tourists, especially when you're wrong. While I admit Carabana attracts outsiders, as well as Pride Week, these are one off annual events that tourism industries cannot be sustained upon. Not only that, but these are niche events. The vast majority of the world is not gay, nor are they Caribbean, not do they feel a strong enough connection that they wish to travel to attend these events. Nuit Blanche and Luminato are very young and practically unknown outside of Toronto, and are sold as local events. People are not flying in from various corners of the globe to attend these events in even small numbers. In fact, there are few festivals in the world that do this. If we look at examples of strong tourism industries around the world, you'll find they are all attraction based. Paris, London, New York... they all have top notch cultural and entertainment attractions. I've seen the stats for every attractions in this city and the province, and I've sat in on meetings with the brightest tourism minds in the province, and what I'm saying is no different from their own views and the numbers that support them.

You obviously know more about this, so I'll admit I'm wrong here.

I should also add that I agree that the CNE grounds would be fantastic for year-round opportunities, but until people get over the CNE, it's not going to happen. Too many people are attached to a glorified provincial fair, for us to convert anything on the CNE grounds into permanent attractions.

I don't see why the CNE couldn't continue as an event with more permanent year-round and seasonal fixtures, but I could see how others might think it would be a dilution of the spirit of it all or whatever. It might make more sense for them to do something about it once the Waterfront gets more built out.

Creating a grander vision for the waterfront that combines the fantastic elements of the West 8 plan with some larger visions for attractions that Torontonians and outsiders can enjoy, would be a step in the right direction toward that "world class" label.

Speaking of the West 8 plan, doesn't this site look out over the proposed maple leaf islands?

If what ends up getting built looks exactly like the renderings, I will be disappointed. However, I do think the concept - the bare bones of the space - look promising. I don't know what the buildings will be used for, what materials they'll use, how lighting will be handled, what that giant yellow thing in the middle of the square is, etc., but I'm hoping for the best.

 

[jn_12]

I should just say that I don't support moving the Zoo or the Science Centre downtown. I was suggesting that their attendance numbers would be better if they were downtown (which is fairly obvious). A zoo in the Portlands would be quite the site though.

 

[Ziggy]

Another idea would be to develop Ontario Place into a more spectacular amusement park with huge roller coasters, similar to Cedar Point. An aquarium could also be put there, I suppose.

 

[Tewder]

I like the idea of a waterfront space with a major water feature that could be used for skating in the winter and as beautiful lakeside fountains and gardens in the summer. It would be big and bold with some sort of central multi-story monument (to Canada?) that would have fountains with sound and light at night (think Bellagio?), or that is maybe offshore connected to the park on shore. In any case I guess the idea is to create an artistic visual piece of monumental spectacle at the central waterfront that would draw people year round and that could maybe become associated with the city.

 

[taal]

I should just say that I don't support moving the Zoo or the Science Centre downtown. I was suggesting that their attendance numbers would be better if they were downtown (which is fairly obvious). A zoo in the Portlands would be quite the site though.

Maybe but Zoo's take up a huge amount of space - also it's likely that would be ticketed space. In other words ... private
I'd rather most of Portland remain public park space. I think the zoo is fine where it is. They really need to attempt to promote it more though.

 

[khris]

Another idea would be to develop Ontario Place into a more spectacular amusement park with huge roller coasters, similar to Cedar Point. An aquarium could also be put there, I suppose.

It's really a shame that Wonderland wasn't built where Ontario Place is, because I've always envisioned how much more awesome it would be to ride coasters along the lakefront.
Although roller coasters do look stupid in skyline photos of a city.

 

[Automation Gallery]

Another idea would be to develop Ontario Place into a more spectacular amusement park with huge roller coasters, similar to Cedar Point. An aquarium could also be put there, I suppose.

An Aquarium down there would attract lots of people 365 days a year.
Here is a pic of the National Aquarium in Baltimores waterfront

Also a scaled down 24 hour casino might be also nice down there similar to Amsterdams Holand Casino,Its about time this city of 5-5 million lands one.