Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[ssiguy2]

I am not against Ford taking over the DVP & Gardiner but it is a matter of equity and making, as an example, Windsorites feel their needs and concerns are just as important and valid as Torontonians. Ontarians know that big cities face unique challenges and expenses and the amount of funding they require to maintain it's economy and quality of life is much higher than most cities. That said, Windsor is not Wingham. It is a major Ontario city and a very important one due to it's large manufacturing base and being the biggest port of entry in the country.

Windsor is also facing a homeless crisis and financial difficulties and it too could use the break that Toronto just got. It's a matter of fairness and without people feeling they are being treated in a fair way, they become more disenfranchised and resentful and that is not good for any city or province.

The uber wealthy corporate kings may create a lot of jobs but does that make you feel any better when they are given huge tax cuts and write-offs to the point they pay little more tax than anyone else? Now that Trudeau has given Atlantic Canadians a break on the carbon tax justifying it by saying the AC is a poorer area and they deserve to get special help does that make Torontonians any happier when they have to pay the carbon tax on their natural gas bill? I think not and I think both analogies are solid.

 

[Johnny Au]

Given the upload, Allen Road remains the only municipally owned freeway in Toronto.

 

[allengeorge]

I am not against Ford taking over the DVP & Gardiner but it is a matter of equity and making, as an example, Windsorites feel their needs and concerns are just as important and valid as Torontonians.

As was pointed out earlier, Windsor is the location of a factory given one of the biggest - if not the biggest - tax break in Canadian history. ($15B to my recollection)

So yeah, the people of Windsor are being heard.

 

[IRT_BMT_IND]

Given the upload, Allen Road remains the only municipally owned freeway in Toronto.

Nope, the Highway 2A stub is the other one.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Windsorites feel their needs and concerns are just as important and valid as Torontonians. It is a major Ontario city and a very important one ….Windsor is also facing a homeless crisis and financial difficulties

Why all the chatter about Windsor in particular? Who cares what Windsor wants anymore than Sudbury or Hamilton? If Windsor wants more dosh from the Ontario taxpayer then they need to fight and negotiate for it, just like Mayor Chow did. This is the Toronto forum, Windsor can start their own.

 

[lenaitch]

It seems some people are framing this upload as the province being prudent in GTA transportation planning and responsive to Toronto's issues. This is essentially a bribe for Toronto to STFU about Ontario Place and let the provincial government do what it wants. It is little different than some of the boundaries placed around the new 'strong mayor' powers doled out.

 

[innsertnamehere]

https://www.ontario.ca/files/2023-11/mof-ontario-toronto-new-deal-working-group-2023-11-27.pdf

The background PDF released yesterday has an interesting item:

"Note: $2B is the anticipated minimum benefit to the City over 10 years, given outdated estimates and cost escalation. Further due diligence is required but substantially higher benefit to the City is expected, which could be upwards of an estimated $6.5B in capital cost relief, plus related operating and maintenance cost savings."

While I expect cost escalation from the $2 billion estimate, I am doubtful of it escalating to $6.5 billion without some scope changes.

I wonder if MTO is identifying additional work they want to perform on the highways above what Toronto was planning (i.e. interchange modernization).

 

[picard102]

I am not against Ford taking over the DVP & Gardiner but it is a matter of equity

Given that Toronto is responsible for 20% GDP, it seems pretty equitable.

Now that Trudeau has given Atlantic Canadians a break on the carbon tax

It's not restricted to Atlantic Canada. It's nation wide.

does that make Torontonians any happier when they have to pay the carbon tax on their natural gas bill? I think not and I think both analogies are solid.

I couldn't care less.

 

[Mount Dennis Resident]

Given the upload, Allen Road remains the only municipally owned freeway in Toronto.

Highway 27 (between Eglinton and Steeles) is still maintained by Toronto.

Black Creek Blvd. was to be a southern extension of Highway 400 to Weston Rd., is still maintained by Toronto.

Spadina Expressway, now known as Allen Rd., between Sheppard and Eglinton, is still maintained by Toronto.

Other former provincial highways have been maintained by Toronto for decades now...

• Highway 2, aka Lake Shore Blvd. and Kingston Road;
• Highway 5, aka Dundas Street West, Bloor Street, and Danforth Road;
• Highway 11, aka Yonge Street;
• Highway 11A, aka University Avenue and Avenue Road;
• Highway 48, aka Markham Road;
• Highway 50, aka Albion Road.

 

[T3G]

Highway 27 (between Eglinton and Steeles) is still maintained by Toronto.

Black Creek Blvd. was to be a southern extension of Highway 400 to Weston Rd., is still maintained by Toronto.

Spadina Expressway, now known as Allen Rd., between Sheppard and Eglinton, is still maintained by Toronto.

Other former provincial highways have been maintained by Toronto for decades now...

• Highway 2, aka Lake Shore Blvd. and Kingston Road;
• Highway 5, aka Dundas Street West, Bloor Street, and Danforth Road;
• Highway 11, aka Yonge Street;
• Highway 11A, aka University Avenue and Avenue Road;
• Highway 48, aka Markham Road;
• Highway 50, aka Albion Road.

You are conflating different things. A highway and a freeway are not necessarily one and the same.

A highway is a main road between cities, i.e. Lake Shore or Kingston Roads. A freeway/motorway/expressway is a grade separated, controlled access road with higher speed limits. Highway 27 is not the latter, it is just an ugly monster stroad.

 

[Admiral Beez]

This is essentially a bribe for Toronto to STFU about Ontario Place and let the provincial government do what it wants.

It's provincial property. If Queens Park deems it so they could put up a Fordian ferris wheel. Remember this ditty from 2011....

Doug Ford’s dream waterfront? Ferris wheel, monorail and a boat-in hotel

Councillor Doug Ford has laid out his most detailed vision for Toronto’s eastern waterfront, with a monorail, boat-in hotel and “megamall.”

www.thestar.com

Besides, Torontonians don't need to STFU about Ontario Place, but City Hall was not the venue to make yourself heard. It's akin to going to Queens Park to complain about something the federal government is planning to do in the province. Know your jurisdictions so you don't waste your powder.

 

[tstormers]

As was pointed out earlier, Windsor is the location of a factory given one of the biggest - if not the biggest - tax break in Canadian history. ($15B to my recollection)

So yeah, the people of Windsor are being heard.

Don't forget the Herb Grey Parkway and the Gordie Howe Bridge.
Though the E.C. Row definitely needs an upgrade!! Plus a connection to the 401 via the Lauzon Ex. would make it a better used road.

(Windsor is my home town).

 

[Haljackey]

This is great news for Toronto and once again shows that, despite Torontonians bitching about Ford, he is the best Premier the city has ever had.

Conversely, this upload will be viewed with distain from other 13 million Ontarians that don't live in Toronto. Toronto is in it's financial mess mostly due to it's own bad tax policy by having the lowest property taxes in the province. They refuse to tax themselves appropriately and then when they can't pay their bills they go crying to Queen's Park to bail them out.

What about places like Windsor that had the EC Roy Expressway uploaded to them by the province? Are they too going to get a similar break from QP? Don't count on it. What makes Torontonians so much more special than Windsorites? Does Windsor not have bills to pay and the highway to maintain?

This is what pisses Ontarians off about Toronto and how QP seems to consider it's needs somehow more important than all the other municipalities in the province. Same goes for transit. Toronto and the GTAH get their LRT lines built for free while Ottawa & Kitchener have to put up a good chunk of their own money as does London with it's BRT.

I fundamentally disagree. Living in London I see the Gardiner/DVP just like any other 400-series highway. It's a part of the provincial freeway network in my mind. Same goes with the Linc/RHVP in Hamilton.

The province should be maintaining this, or at minimum the entire GTA should be chipping in. The former is much easier to implement.

Not going to discuss transit subsidies on a thread about the Gardiner, its a different discussion.

-----

I am not against Ford taking over the DVP & Gardiner but it is a matter of equity and making, as an example, Windsorites feel their needs and concerns are just as important and valid as Torontonians. Ontarians know that big cities face unique challenges and expenses and the amount of funding they require to maintain it's economy and quality of life is much higher than most cities. That said, Windsor is not Wingham. It is a major Ontario city and a very important one due to it's large manufacturing base and being the biggest port of entry in the country.

Windsor is also facing a homeless crisis and financial difficulties and it too could use the break that Toronto just got. It's a matter of fairness and without people feeling they are being treated in a fair way, they become more disenfranchised and resentful and that is not good for any city or province.

The uber wealthy corporate kings may create a lot of jobs but does that make you feel any better when they are given huge tax cuts and write-offs to the point they pay little more tax than anyone else? Now that Trudeau has given Atlantic Canadians a break on the carbon tax justifying it by saying the AC is a poorer area and they deserve to get special help does that make Torontonians any happier when they have to pay the carbon tax on their natural gas bill? I think not and I think both analogies are solid.

In my mind there was inequity with Toronto footing the cost to maintain provincially significant infrastructure like the Gardiner. That inequity will be fixed with this decision.

Not going to discuss manufacturing/tax credits on a thread about the Gardiner, its a different discussion.

Not going to discuss homelessness on a thread about the Gardiner, its a different discussion.

Not going to discuss Atlantic Canada carbon tax on a thread about the Gardiner, its a different discussion.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I guess this dream is dead, at least until the 2040s, I'd guess.

It Would Be a Mistake for Toronto Not to Tear Down Its Urban Expressway

Removing an elevated city highway doesn’t always make traffic worse—some cars just disappear.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[T3G]

I'm not at all convinced tearing down the Gardiner was ever anything but a pie in the sky fantasy. We are too autocentric in this country for something like that to work out.