TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[MisterF]

Lots of countries buy Bombardier streetcars. It's the biggest train maker in the world and it does most of its train business outside Canada.

 

[allabootmatt]

I always found that a very strange argument. I pay the same amount in taxes on my income whether I live in Newfoundland or Toronto. The fact remains that taxpayers in Thunder Bay are paying for Toronto's streetcars, and it hardly seems fair for them to use their tax dollars to put themselves out of business.

No, they're not. You may--individually--pay the same amount of tax on your income in Toronto as someone making the same income in Thunder Bay. But the amount of tax derived from Toronto is wildly disproportionate to its population, since the workforce here is very highly paid compared to elsewhere. As a result, Toronto's taxes are paying for bridges and hospitals and schools in Thunder Bay, along with a lot of other places--never the other way around. We massively subsidise the rest of the country, even on a per-capita basis. I believe there was a Conference Board study a couple of years ago that pegged it at about $1800 for every Torontonian (it's even more in Calgary).

Therefore, whenever an increase in provincial or federal funding to something in Toronto is proposed, keep in mind that in a direct sense, the subsidy from the rest of Canada to make it possible is absolutely zero. Rather, such funding requires marginally reducing the subsidy that we already pay out to those places.

There's nothing wrong with progressive taxation in either an individual or a regional sense. But when the country's biggest tax generator has to go cap in hand to fund basic infrastructure requirements because so much of the wealth it generates is redistributed, there's a problem.

 

[isittimetomoveyet]

I always found that a very strange argument. I pay the same amount in taxes on my income whether I live in Newfoundland or Toronto. The fact remains that taxpayers in Thunder Bay are paying for Toronto's streetcars, and it hardly seems fair for them to use their tax dollars to put themselves out of business.

No, they're not. You may--individually--pay the same amount of tax on your income in Toronto as someone making the same income in Thunder Bay. But the amount of tax derived from Toronto is wildly disproportionate to its population, since the workforce here is very highly paid compared to elsewhere. As a result, Toronto's taxes are paying for bridges and hospitals and schools in Thunder Bay, along with a lot of other places--never the other way around. We massively subsidise the rest of the country, even on a per-capita basis. I believe there was a Conference Board study a couple of years ago that pegged it at about $1800 for every Torontonian (it's even more in Calgary).

Therefore, whenever an increase in provincial or federal funding to something in Toronto is proposed, keep in mind that in a direct sense, the subsidy from the rest of Canada to make it possible is absolutely zero. Rather, such funding requires marginally reducing the subsidy that we already pay out to those places.

There's nothing wrong with progressive taxation in either an individual or a regional sense. But when the country's biggest tax generator has to go cap in hand to fund basic infrastructure requirements because so much of the wealth it generates is redistributed, there's a problem.

Very, very well said. And very true. But like true Canadians, we Torontonians, and Ontarian's as well for that matter, help our regional brothers and sisters out. But the fact remains now that although Ontario's economy is doing well in a number of places, we are getting killed by the manufacturing sector. Many hard working people are getting laid off and finding themselves out of work. Now, as in all cycles, it is our turn for a little prop-up until we get our engines running full strength again!

 

[allabootmatt]

I should add that, obviously, there is an opportunity cost to giving Toronto some of its money back; that cash won't be available to fund a bridge in East Jesus, NB, or wherever. But that is hardly the moral equivalent of asking the good people of East Jesus to bail out their citified cousins--they live off of our taxes, not the other way around.

And isittime, we do need to get our engines running full strength, but we need more than that. Ontario, and the GTA in particular, won't be able to maintain their competitiveness if all we do is re-invest to the point of returning to the status quo. We need a quantum leap--the kind that becomes necessary when you don't invest meaningfully in hard infrastructure for 30+ years, but the rest of the world does.

 

[unimaginative2]

Lots of countries buy Bombardier streetcars. It's the biggest train maker in the world and it does most of its train business outside Canada.

Yeah, but the catch is that they're made in local plants (Plattsburgh, NY and a host of Bombardier facilities around Europe). Siemens was going to build the Canadian subway cars in China.

allabootmatt, I believe in a redistributive tax system. I'm a student, so I have a low income. I don't know about you, but I don't massively subsidize anybody. I am subsidized by working people in Thunder Bay. And yet I am a Torontonian! You can draw artificial boundaries anywhere you like. Oakville is higher income and thus contributes more tax than Toronto. Is it somehow screwed by Toronto? Is Rosedale screwed by Jane and Finch?

It's patently absurd to claim that the McCains or Irvings, New Brunswickers all, are living off the taxes paid by residents of Regent Park.

I strongly believe in more infrastructure spending in Toronto, but I also strongly believe that claims of being wronged by a redistributive tax system are not the way to get it.

 

[nfitz]

Yeah, but the catch is that they're made in local plants (Plattsburgh, NY and a host of Bombardier facilities around Europe).

Plattsburgh NY is a lot closer to Toronto than Thunder Bay! And a lot of suppliers for that plant are in Canada, being about 20 minutes south of the border, and a long way from most industries in the USA.

 

[allabootmatt]

Yeah, but the catch is that they're made in local plants (Plattsburgh, NY and a host of Bombardier facilities around Europe). Siemens was going to build the Canadian subway cars in China.

allabootmatt, I believe in a redistributive tax system. I'm a student, so I have a low income. I don't know about you, but I don't massively subsidize anybody. I am subsidized by working people in Thunder Bay. And yet I am a Torontonian! You can draw artificial boundaries anywhere you like. Oakville is higher income and thus contributes more tax than Toronto. Is it somehow screwed by Toronto? Is Rosedale screwed by Jane and Finch?

It's patently absurd to claim that the McCains or Irvings, New Brunswickers all, are living off the taxes paid by residents of Regent Park.

I strongly believe in more infrastructure spending in Toronto, but I also strongly believe that claims of being wronged by a redistributive tax system are not the way to get it.

We can compare individuals, or neighbourhoods, forever. Point is that, in the aggregate, Toronto taxpayers foot the bill for all kinds of things elsewhere, so we shouldn't have to scrounge to pay our own.

Worth noting, though, that simply by living in Toronto, where due to density and economies of scale public services are vastly easier to provide than in the (many, many) largely unsustainable, remote communities in this country, you are doing the public budget a favour.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

Doesn't really contain any juicy info, other than there's a confidential attachment, but here's the commission report regarding the streetcar RFP

http://www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-comrpt/documents/report/f3677/_conv.htm

 

[RedRocket191]

Two things:

They forgot to remove the PDF editing comments before publishing the document to the web.

The juicy info is in the confidential attachment

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Two things:

They forgot to remove the PDF editing comments before publishing the document to the web.

The juicy info is in the confidential attachment

where is it?

 

[299 bloor call control.]

I was listening to CBC and they report that they're going to reopen the tender tomorrow to Alstom, Bombardier, and Siemens.

 

[Whoaccio]

What? A Toronto Sun article was factually inaccurate?!

 

[DSC]

According to Steve Munro (http://stevemunro.ca/) the TTC has issued a press release.

Toronto Transit Commission staff, tomorrow, will seek approval from Commissioners to enter into a multi-phase bid process with three known and proven manufactures of low-floor light rail vehicles: Alstom Transportation Inc., Bombardier Transportation Canada Inc., and Siemens Canada Limited. The technical requirements remain unchanged.

On July 17 the TTC announced that it had cancelled the Request for Proposal process to purchase 204 new low-floor streetcars. The two bids it received at the June 30 deadline were deemed non-compliant. The TTC said it would review its options to ensure the current streetcar fleet is replaced starting in 2012 with new, accessible vehicles. The recommendation from staff is that the TTC begin discussions with all three manufactures with respect to technical and commercial requirements. A formal competitive pricing phase, including a plan for 25% Canadian content, will be the last phase of the process before a contract award is recommended to the Commission.

Prior to the close of the original RFP, the TTC retained a Fairness Monitor, Hon. Coulter Osborne, to ensure the process was followed as set out in the RFP. He concurred with staff’s decision that both bids received by the TTC were evaluated fairly and in a manner consistent with the RFP.

Under its procurement rules, the TTC may contact any vendor, including those who responded to a Request for Expressions of Interest, a process undertaken before the original RFP was issued. The TTC met recently with representatives from Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens. Each indicated they could build a streetcar that meets the technical requirements established in the original RFP.

If the recommendation is adopted, TTC staff will report regularly to the Commission on the status of discussions. The TTC believes the multi-phase bid process is the best option to ensure it obtains new streetcars that will meet the city’s needs. It also allows for questions or concerns to be discussed without the rigors of a formal RFP process.

Steve says: "I will add to this item after Wednesday’s Commission meeting". As always, his take on all this will make good reading.

 

[khris]

I'd laugh if Bombardier said, "thanks, but no thanks."

 

[FutureMayor]

Toronto transit looks to reopen streetcar bidding

TORONTO, Aug 26 (Reuters) - Toronto's transit authority said on Tuesday it will recommend to its commissioners that it enter into a new bidding process with three major light rail manufacturers to replace the city's aging streetcar fleet after the initial process was scrapped last month.

The Toronto Transit Commission said that it will propose starting discussions with Bombardier Inc (BBDb.TO: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz), the Canadian arm of Siemens (SIEGn.DE: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) and Alstom (ALSO.PA: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz).

The discussions on technical and commercial requirements will be part of a multi-step bidding process that will include a competitive pricing phase before the C$1.25 billion ($1.19 billion) contract is awarded.

The TTC said it had met with representatives from each of the companies, all of whom said they could build a streetcar that would meet the technical requirements set out in the original bidding process.

One of the terms stipulated by the TTC is that at least 25 percent of the content for the vehicles' design and construction would have to be Canadian.

The contract for 204 new streetcars had at first looked likely to go to Montreal-based Bombardier, but the process hit a snag in late July when the TTC said the proposal it received from the company did not meet the technical specifications.

The TTC said the design would not be able to handle some of the tight turns on Toronto's existing track network. But Bombardier disputed the claim and said that it stood behind its bid.

The only other bid submitted at the time was from Britain's TRAM Power Ltd, which was determined to not be commercially compliant, and the original proposals process was canceled.

Germany's Siemens and French-based Alstom had expressed interest in the contract, but had not submitted formal proposals.

The contract would have an option to purchase up to an additional 364 streetcars over the next 15 years, as part of a plan to expand the use of light rail and rapid transit across Toronto, Canada's biggest city.

The recommendation will be discussed at a meeting with commissioners on Wednesday.

Louroz