Toronto Malibu Harbourfront Condo | ?m | 32s | Malibu Investments | P + S / IBI

Then why am I still seeing offers where mainenance fees include hydro?

I do not know the specifics of this exact situation but I don't think I'm out of line to assume the builder and its salespeople are clouding the truth in a dishonest way.

If rsk was sold the unit the way he says he was -- and the sale occured after the new law came into effect -- then he was in fact being screwed.

MikeInTO: when exactly did the new law come into affect? Before or after May 2006?
 
Casaguy,

The housing industry is one of, if not the most heavily regulated industry in the province, so for better or for worse not ever developer is aware of every last new regulation coming down the pipeline.

I'll try to find out when the interval/individual metering timelines came into effect and post it here sometime in the next few days.

The initial goal was to have every multi-unit dwelling in Ontario (new & existing) individually metered by December 31, 2010. If the developer really wanted to "screw" RSK, they could have kept their promise and had his hydro included in the maintenance fees and then had him cover the several hundred dollar cost of installing a new meter in his unit in the next year or two prior to the 2010 deadline.

Some new regulatory changes such as this have costs that are absorbed by the developer (other such as new changes to the building code i.e. sprinklers in high-rises, that occur part way through the development process aren't included in initial pro-formas and are also absorbed by the developer).... anyway I'll try to get you that info regarding the hydro metering... but at the end of the day the developer did the right thing. As a homeowner the more control you have over the use of hydro, water etc the better off you are, unless you are a total energy hog.
 
Heavy regulated to protect who exactly?

I'm sure the plan to charge individual owners is much more fair, but you are using that to gloss over -- or worse, justify the fact that rsk may have been lied to.

Everyone knows many people who have stories about how their builder screwed them, lied to them, deceived them, skipped town on them, etc. I can't think of any other customer driven industry where so many people have so many negative experiences. But yet I should be happy that it is heavy regulated?

People have every right to be upset if they don't get what they were told they were going to get. Be it sloppy workmanship or a vent in the wrong place, etc.

If you bought an iPhone and one of the buttons didn't work would you expect to be told "well that's just too bad"? No. But in this business it is accepted and is sadly now expected.

That's all. End rant.

And now back to Mallibu, a building which I think turned out extremely well.
 
Metered hydro is to the purchaser's benefit. And maintenance fees are determined by the board at a later point. What does the builder have to gain by being 'dishonest' and what are they being 'dishonest' about?
 
Metered hydro is to the purchaser's benefit. And maintenance fees are determined by the board at a later point. What does the builder have to gain by being 'dishonest' and what are they being 'dishonest' about?

It's dishonest because this builder (and I've seen it in the past with others) low balled the estimate cost of running the building so they can advertise lower maintenance fees or overall cost per month vs renting. I've seen maintenance fees jump by up to 50% in the first year in some projects. Research the builder, and buy if they have a local track record for delivering with integrity... Pinnacle, Kolter and Tridel are a few
 
If anyone did any research, they would have known what maintenance fees are, on average, for any new building (they are all advertised at basically the same rate and they all end up at basically the same rate).
 
Hi all,

With respect to Casaguys question on interval/smart metering: the provincial government made a commitment for all Ontario consumers to have smart/interval meters by Dec 31, 2010 back in 2004. However the regulation providing the Ontario Energy Board with the authority to set criteria or requirements for metering technology used in condominiums and to ensure that the technology is capable of measuring electricity consumption or use in accordance with time of use rates and minimally is capable of measuring electricity consumption or use in hourly intervals only came into force on December 31, 2007.

Casaguy, you seem to be very very cynical about the whole development process. Not every developer is created equally. Some are very good at what they do, take great pride in their product and care very much about customer service and their buyers, others aren't as good. Perhaps you've had a bad experience and you've made assumptions about the industry as a whole, based on a few individual experiences/stories - which would not surprise me as your builder does not have a very good reputation and not a very good track record... in fact last year's JD Power survey of high-rise customer satisfaction, your builder came dead last… by a rather wide margin - so rather then your experience being an industry norm, it may be more of a reflection of the bottom of the barrel in terms of customer satisfaction.

In the case of Malibu, the purchaser got the best deal with a metered hydro unit. Virtually all consumers are better of with one, essentially 'rsk' got an upgrade for free as the meters are costly and provide a better service – one can control their own usage and what they pay. With respect to condo fees, the builder provides an estimate, but no one really knows exactly how the building will optimally operate until at least a couple years after closing. Since initial estimates were made a few years ago, water rates in Toronto have increased very significantly (9% a year I think) and the cost of recycling and waste disposal has increased beyond the rate of inflation - so have labour costs for security, maintenance etc... no one is getting screwed - it's jus an estimate - had 'rsk' not received a hydro meter, he would have paid even higher condo fees to cover his and other residents hydro with no incentive for conservation - which would result in even higher fees, not to mention environmental costs. At the end of the day the condo corp will likely have a year or two of ups and downs tinkering with the fees – which has nothing to do with the builder.

As far as your regulation comment - the hundreds of provincial regs and pieces of legislation, federal laws, municipal by-laws, conservation authorities, tarion and dozens other agencies, boards and commissions that have laws and codes governing residential construction protect basically everything under the sun from vibration tolerance in TTC tunnels, to consumers, to on site labourers to salamanders – the amount of regulation in the industry is staggering, it’s actually amazing anything in this city ever gets built.

I highly doubt anyone was lied to, most people I know in the industry are very honest... it's just a more efficient way of conducting business - that said, I don't know what kind of experience you've had at Casa with a builder that doesn't have a very good reputation and maybe that's tainted your view of the development industry.

I'll end my way too long a post this early in the morning by saying that Malibu looks like it turned out pretty well and is a solid anchor for that corner - hopefully some of the ground floor units have some decent retail.
 
Thanks for your reply Mike.

I am well aware (as I think most are) of Cresford's shoddy reputation and low customer service ranking. Personally speaking I have yet to have one negative experience with them. But then again they are only on the 6th floor of a 47 floor tower. My opinions are not based on experience with them.

My opinions are based on numerous experiences with other buyers, numerous print media stories and numerous tv news and tv newsmagazine stories. Buyers have very little recourse when their half million dollar purchase is not what they were told it would be. That is not right. And it's all very well documented.

I encourage the new residents of Malibu (or any other newly finished building) to come on here to say, "Wow my new condo is everything they promised" or "The workmanship is wonderful" or "The customer service has been outstanding" or "They put so much thought and attention to detail" or "They really did the right thing with the hundreds of thousands of dollars I trusted them with".

Those are the comments we should be hearing and what the industry should be striving for. Maybe then the popular consensus would begin to change.
 
Thanks guys for discussing my concerns in detail. I am attaching 2 scanned copies of the documents to give you some more details. One is a pricing list they gave me at purchase time. The other is a page from my contract. Sec 4.4 a in this page talks abt the utilities. My lawyer is looking at this to see if anything can be done. What do you all think.

Cheers
rsk

page from contract
http://www.geocities.com/shrikumar_r/page_from_contract.pdf

price list at purchase
http://www.geocities.com/shrikumar_r/price_list_at_purchase.pdf
 
Casaguy, I can say all those quotes are correct if I were to refer to my experiences with Pinnacle International and Kolter ... So there are good builders out there... but you are absolutely right... we need better legislation to take some power away from the builders and give them to the purchaser... All builders can deliver on their promise if they wanted to.

RSK, those prices make me nostalgic ... whatever the outcome, you've still benefited... look at it like that and use this experience.
 
whatever the outcome, you've still benefited...

Still not sure about that. He's now going to be charged for hydro individually (which is good), but the maintenance fee isn't dropping to compensate for that (which is bad). He'll probably still be paying more than he would have. He'll be paying probably 20%-50% more about a year from now regardless, but in the meantime, he's worse off.

I guess I'm just being a picky pain in the ass :)
 
^... I was refering to his property's value... 1 + Den for $194,000 ...
Anybody know when is the Loblaws Superstore slated to open?
 
A couple of things to the person that just moved in. What floor are you on? Im on 16 and scheduled to move in mid August... Im just curious if they are making good progress or not?

In regards to the individual metering. I am of the opinion that it isnt a big deal. Somewhere in our contract it says how much maintenance fees go up year over year... and I think it falls in like with the numbers. That said, once the registration happens and the building turns over to the condo corp... we can do a number of things to try and save money in the long term to decrease these fees.

In addition... from my understanding... if the builder didnt include them now, we would have had to replace them ourselves in two years when it is provincially mandated.

Finally... I thought the RFP that was in the paper a couple of months ago said work was to start at the end of 2008. Can anyone verify that?
 
^... I was refering to his property's value... 1 + Den for $194,000 ...
Anybody know when is the Loblaws Superstore slated to open?

I understood that the Superstore was on hold for the foreseeable future. The chain is in financial trouble.
 

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