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F-35 Fighter Jet Purchase

Admiral Beez said:
A successful Gripen program in the Americas would give the SAAB proposal for the RCAF some cred.
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Not really. We don't have much in common with the Brazilians. Far more important is NATO use of a platform.

Also, like I said earlier, this is an open and transparent bid. It's not being negotiated with different governments or by our government. Whoever gets the highest score on the bid matrix will win.
 
kEiThZ said:
Not really. We don't have much in common with the Brazilians. Far more important is NATO use of a platform.

Also, like I said earlier, this is an open and transparent bid. It's not being negotiated with different governments or by our government. Whoever gets the highest score on the bid matrix will win.
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Have we ever truly ran a fair and open bid without political interference? I’m reminded of the EH-101 being preferred and then politically rejected, resulting in our CH-148 buy, and six dead from HMCS Fredericton. I’m reminded of the Leopard 2 tank buy, AFAIK there was no competitive RFP whatsoever.

But I set aside my pessimism, let’s hope the fighter project gives us the best. I do hope cost is included, since if price is no object the F-35 wins hands down.
 
Admiral Beez said:
Have we ever truly ran a fair and open bid without political interference?
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Plenty. The C-17 was picked without any real political issues. And despite the cost issues, the design for frigates, auxiliary oilers, Arctic patrol vessels etc. were all chosen without political interference. The Army got their new patrol vehicles (TAPV) without any issues either. Our biggest issue isn't so much political interference in what's picked but usually political demands for industrial and regional offsets and budgeting that can delay procurement for years. The whole shipbuilding program is an example of this.

Admiral Beez said:
I’m reminded of the Leopard 2 tank buy, AFAIK there was no competitive RFP whatsoever.
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Wartime procurement has certain allowances.

Admiral Beez said:
I do hope cost is included, since if price is no object the F-35 wins hands down.
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You've missed my point here. It is very possible that the F-35 is not the most expensive option on lifecycle system cost. And that is what the contest looks at. Not just aircraft cost. But system cost over the life. That includes weapons, sensors, and support equipment. The F-35 has a lot of integration that actually lowers costs elsewhere, while making the airframe looks a bit more expensive.
 
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kEiThZ said:
It is very possible that the F-35 is not the most expensive option on lifecycle system cost. And that is what the contest looks at. Not just aircraft cost. But system cost over the life. That includes weapons, sensors, and support equipment. The F-35 has a lot of integration that actually lowers costs elsewhere, while making the airframe looks a bit more expensive.
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With at least fourteen non-US countries now committed to or operating the F-35, I think it’s time for Canada to bite the bullet and buy the Lightning. The RCAF can benefit from the learnings of those who went before, and the costs of spares, tech support, simulators and training should now we reduced by scale.

The biggest barrier is that Trudeau sees the F-35 as a Harper project, even though it was Chrétien who initiated the partnership with Lockheed-Martin in 1997. Maybe Trudeau can roll out Chrétien and his 1997-2002 Defence Minister Art Eggleton to claim the F-35 was always a LPC project.
 
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Admiral Beez said:
With at least fourteen non-US countries now committed to or operating the F-35, I think it’s time for Canada to bite the bullet and buy the Lightning. The RCAF can benefit from the learnings of those who went before, and the costs of spares, tech support, simulators and training should now we reduced by scale.

The biggest barrier is that Trudeau sees the F-35 as a Harper project, even though it was Chrétien who initiated the partnership with Lockheed-Martin in 1997. Maybe Trudeau can roll out Chrétien and his 1997-2002 Defence Minister Art Eggleton to claim the F-35 was always a LPC project.
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Ummm. Like I said previously, the competition is in bid evaluation right now. And it's a bid process that places the heaviest weight on technical merit/performance and then price. If the F-35 is that capable and economic (and in my personal opinion it is), we'll see a contract award next year. I would hope people support the current process and let it play out. It's one of the best evaluations I've seen in a long time. A much more transparent process and heavy emphasis on performance.

Future fighter capability project - Canada.ca

Canada has launched an open and fair competition to acquire a future fighter fleet of aircraft.
www.canada.ca www.canada.ca
 
kEiThZ said:
If the F-35 is that capable and economic (and in my personal opinion it is), we'll see a contract award next year.
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I hope you're right, but doesn't a F-35 win leave a lot of egg on Trudeau's face for canceling it? How does he politically spin this?

Let's hope for his sake that the per unit and total program costs are less than what Harper suggested, less inflation. That's make it easy for Trudeau to swallow.
 
Admiral Beez said:
I hope you're right, but doesn't a F-35 win leave a lot of egg on Trudeau's face for canceling it? How does he politically spin this?

Let's hope for his sake that the per unit and total program costs are less than what Harper suggested, less inflation. That's make it easy for Trudeau to swallow.
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Trudeau cancelled the single-source process. As far as I know it had not advanced to a signed agreement and I don't recall we paid any exit penalties.
 
lenaitch said:
Trudeau cancelled the single-source process. As far as I know it had not advanced to a signed agreement and I don't recall we paid any exit penalties.
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I understand. What I'm curious to see is was Harper's canceled single-source proposal cheaper than what Trudeau finally commits to.

Were the EH-101s the RCAF got for SAR any cheaper (exit penalties excluded) than the EH-101 single-source contract we tore up?
 
Admiral Beez said:
What I'm curious to see is was Harper's canceled single-source proposal cheaper than what Trudeau finally commits to.
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I would bet on it. The price of the F-35 has really come down. It's now under US$78 million. This is basically price competitive with the Super Hornet, for more capability. It's a very different situation from 2012, when Harper tried to sole source the F-35s.

20180914_F35.jpg
 
lenaitch said:
Almost guaranteed to trigger a lawsuit and further delay selection.
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Meh. Companies get cut from competitions all the time. Boeing should be used to it, given how many times the Super Hornet has lost internationally. Good luck to them if they think a lawsuit will do much.
 
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kEiThZ said:
They are getting to the end of their service lives. That said, we do a decent job with maintaining the ones that do deploy.
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While the world is becoming a far more dangerous place our MoD was newly appointed to focus primarily on #metoo sexual misconduct and gender/ethnicity representation issues.

Meanwhile the programs to replace the Halifax class frigates show little to no substantive progress. The first Type 26 isn’t expected to be laid down until 2024 or 2025, with the first entering service in the early 2030s, forty years after the first Halifax class entered service in 1992. Ridiculous.
 
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