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Toronto Regional Board of Trade Regional Rail Report

The "you" here implies that I didn't get a sense of what it was like before, and that this is a lesson that I should learn, and that I'm guilty of pushing for the removal of cycle lanes.
I see.

Let me reword then: tolling car lanes is no worse than transit service cuts or cyclist lane removals. Since Toronto seems to be ok with the latter - and has actually done so - I see no problem with the former. **Drivers** will have to make do, just like cyclists and transit users.
 
I see.

Let me reword then: tolling car lanes is no worse than transit service cuts or cyclist lane removals. Since Toronto seems to be ok with the latter I see no problem with the former. **Drivers** will have to make do, just like cyclists and transit users.
Why fight fire with fire though? Instead of enacting punishment on drivers, why not push harder for the former to not be okay? Not to mention it feels like the amount of bike lanes, bus lanes, and pedestrian paths going up is far larger than the amount of them getting removed, especially in Old Toronto. You look at streets like Bay, Bloor, Richmond, and Danforth, which had their lanes reduced from 4 lanes to 2 in favour of wider sidewalks and bike lanes, heck even Yonge Street is going to be completely pedestrianized and cars will be removed, so where are these bike lanes being removed? Some fringe in Scarborough?
 
And what makes you say that? I don't want to be stuck in the car in traffic, I want to be able to get to where I need to as quickly as possible and as efficiently as possible. If that means using the car then it means using the car. If it means taking a train, then it means taking a train. The reason why I'm a big advocate for elevated rail, subways, and GO RER is because I believe that they are our best tool for offering transit that is competitive with the car, something that would actively make me reconsider using the car the next time I take a trip downtown. In the case of GO RER, perhaps this is only because GO passes by somewhere where I live, but based off the promises Metrolinx has made (and I do want to specify the word promises since its entirely possible RER underdelivers), its entirely reasonable for me to never need to drive to downtown again, and to only drive to my local GO station where I take the train downtown, because based off the published time schedules and travel times, it would be a trip that is genuinely competitive with car travel times even outside of congested rush hours. The reason why I rag on LRT so much especially in suburbs isn't because I'm a car driver who doesn't want lanes taken away but because LRT isn't something I want to sit on to get where I need to go. If I wanted to get stuck behind red lights and stop every 300m for a stop I'd drive my car or take the bus. LRTs are far too slow to be an effective mode of transport for suburbs, and the only thing it would be effective in is having non suburbanites pat themselves on the back and proclaiming how they brought transit to suburbs, without thinking about whether or not this is useful for the community you're bringing it to. Do you know why I advocate for elevated rail? Because its the best of both worlds. It offers the seemless and *mostly* disruption free trips that a subway does, but does it while costing a lot less, and it offers having interesting views to look at when you're riding on it and looking out the window. If you want to reduce the car lanes on a major street to allow for elevated rail like on Eglinton, I honestly do not care, because elevated rail is a good alternative to cars, and having fast grade separated rail reduces my need, and the need of the people in my community lower or middle class to use their cars and get on trains.

Who ever argued for this? Seriously, who ever argued for this? I live in a location where not even in my wildest fantasies would I even dream of having a subway anywhere near my house, and I wouldn't even try to start advocating for it.

And when have I ever said anything of the sort? I have never, not once, advocated for the removal of pedestrian or cycle lanes in favour of car lanes anywhere on this forum, nor would I ever do that because that's silly and ridiculous. If you can find such a post I will eat my own words.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I'm pretty sure I've made it pretty clear in my Bio and in my posts where I live.
I was pretty sure on the SCarborough Subway thread you said you currently have to take a bus to the rt to transfer at Kennedy. Part of your advocacy of the Scarborough subway was to remove one of the transfers you loathed. Maybe I misremembered. Maybe you moved.

It’s very nice for you to fight so hard for others to get subways. I no longer think of you as entitled. Instead a social justice warrior.
 
I was pretty sure on the SCarborough Subway thread you said you currently have to take a bus to the rt to transfer at Kennedy. Part of your advocacy of the Scarborough subway was to remove one of the transfers you loathed. Maybe I misremembered. Maybe you moved.
Pretty sure I used "you" in a general sense, I was never talking about myself in that situation.
EDIT:
It’s very nice for you to fight so hard for others to get subways. I no longer think of you as entitled. Instead a social justice warrior.
Glad that we have evolved to name calling, what a brand new era of transit discourse on Urban Toronto
 
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Why fight fire with fire though? Instead of enacting punishment on drivers, why not push harder for the former to not be okay?
People are already fighting that fight - and have failed, multiple times. TTC operational and maintenance funding has not kept pace with the city’s growth. The city’s bike lane plan has also been scaled back multiple times. Last year was the biggest upgrade in bike lanes in 5, maybe 10 years - and will not be repeated this year. So, no: we are not drastically improving our bike lane situation either.
You look at streets like Bay, Bloor, Richmond, Danforth, heck even Yonge Street is going to be completely pedestrianized and cars will be removed
Cars are not being removed completely from any of these streets. Even the downtown Yonge project will not completely remove car traffic.

I do not believe in a “build it and they will come” approach **alone** - which I think is the fundamental difference between our positions. I believe that you have to improve the viability of transit and alternate modes of transportation, while penalizing auto transport. If you don’t do the latter you’ll end up with a crappy built form that will be hostile to non-drivers, and will be car-centric anyeays.
 
People are already fighting that fight - and have failed, multiple times. TTC operational and maintenance funding has not kept pace with the city’s growth. The city’s bike lane plan has also been scaled back multiple times. Last year was the biggest upgrade in bike lanes in 5, maybe 10 years - and will not be repeated this year. So, no: we are not drastically improving our bike lane situation either.

Cars are not being removed completely from any of these streets. Even the downtown Yonge project will not completely remove car traffic.

I do not believe in a “build it and they will come approach **alone** - which I think is the fundamental difference between our positions. I believe that you have to improve the viability of transit and alternate modes of transportation, while penalizing auto transport. If you don’t do the latter you’ll end up with a crappy built form that will be hostile to non-drivers, and will be car-centric anyeays.
I edited my post to clarify before you posted this response.
 
I do not believe in a “build it and they will come” approach **alone** - which I think is the fundamental difference between our positions. I believe that you have to improve the viability of transit and alternate modes of transportation, while penalizing auto transport. If you don’t do the latter you’ll end up with a crappy built form that will be hostile to non-drivers, and will be car-centric anyeays.
I think there's plenty of evidence in the gtha alone that this works though, the first and biggest example being the GO Train. GO was a response to the massive amount of sprawl Toronto was experiencing at the time, and it was a pilot to an alternative to building new highways. They didn't remove car lanes, they didn't gimp the highway network, they just built an alternative for rush hour commuters, and it was an instant success. They built something that was fast, useful, got the job done, and people came. Something Jonathan English always talks about when he's talking about local bus service is the importance of frequent bus networks. Idk if there's a link for this but in TransitCon he was discussing about the values of frequent bus service even in the most suburban environments. He was talking about how often he's hired as a consultant at major cities that tell them that the outermost suburbs will never have the ridership to justify 5 minute headways on busses, and Toronto proved that this wasn't the case back in the 60s. During that time period, suburbs in areas like Sheppard and Don Mills were first being built as car oriented suburbs, looking extremely similar to areas like Northern Brampton or Woodbridge today, and it looked like the type of suburb which most transit planners would tell you "would never attract enough ridership to justify it", but guess what they did and TTC made a ton of money back then off of these busses. Brampton is experiencing something similar atm. Over the past 10 years they significantly increased the frequencies on Zum, and it went from an underused bus service to over capacity pre-covid, and that's while it was running like 7 minute frequencies, and they did this without removing car lanes or directly gimping drivers. They offered a fast and efficient service, and people came.

If you want some none Toronto examples, look at Washington DC. When it was first proposed and built, many transit experts at the time claimed that the areas that the metro travelled through weren't dense enough to support a metro, and that construction of the metro wasn't worth it and wasn't going to do anything. Shortly after opening it performed way above expecations, and is now the preferred method of transport in the city for Middle and Upper Middle Class workers, and they did so without gimping the existing road network or car infrastructure. The Canada Line in Vancouver... the same thing. People thought it wouldn't do well and that they should build an LRT instead. The reason why the Canada Line only runs 40m long trains and had many corners cut was partially because the people in charge, including the city of Richmond, believed that Richmond was not dense enough to support a metro, and that a light metro was overkill. 10 years later and the Canada Line is at crush point and facing capacity issues without platform extensions and a new set of vehicles, and again, they accomplished this without gimping cars.

So no, time and time again "build it and they will come" has been proven to work and to be an effective strategy.
 
As a counter example, please consider Madrid:


Or, if you want a GTHA example, York, which has built tons of BRT infrastructure and got precious little to show for it. Or LA, which has built out quite a bit in terms of lines and has seen falling ridership on some lines. “Build it and they will come” is often insufficient, and is incredibly context-dependent.

I’m unabashedly ok with giving my preferred option (transit, other active modes) a boost by penalizing driving, because I also believe there are other benefits to having a non-car-centric built form and changing people’s mentalities around driving (you have to pay per-use, which forces you to really think about how you should make your trip.)
 
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I think there's plenty of evidence in the gtha alone that this works though, the first and biggest example being the GO Train. GO was a response to the massive amount of sprawl Toronto was experiencing at the time, and it was a pilot to an alternative to building new highways. They didn't remove car lanes, they didn't gimp the highway network, they just built an alternative for rush hour commuters, and it was an instant success. They built something that was fast, useful, got the job done, and people came. Something Jonathan English always talks about when he's talking about local bus service is the importance of frequent bus networks. Idk if there's a link for this but in TransitCon he was discussing about the values of frequent bus service even in the most suburban environments. He was talking about how often he's hired as a consultant at major cities that tell them that the outermost suburbs will never have the ridership to justify 5 minute headways on busses, and Toronto proved that this wasn't the case back in the 60s. During that time period, suburbs in areas like Sheppard and Don Mills were first being built as car oriented suburbs, looking extremely similar to areas like Northern Brampton or Woodbridge today, and it looked like the type of suburb which most transit planners would tell you "would never attract enough ridership to justify it", but guess what they did and TTC made a ton of money back then off of these busses. Brampton is experiencing something similar atm. Over the past 10 years they significantly increased the frequencies on Zum, and it went from an underused bus service to over capacity pre-covid, and that's while it was running like 7 minute frequencies, and they did this without removing car lanes or directly gimping drivers. They offered a fast and efficient service, and people came.

If you want some none Toronto examples, look at Washington DC. When it was first proposed and built, many transit experts at the time claimed that the areas that the metro travelled through weren't dense enough to support a metro, and that construction of the metro wasn't worth it and wasn't going to do anything. Shortly after opening it performed way above expecations, and is now the preferred method of transport in the city for Middle and Upper Middle Class workers, and they did so without gimping the existing road network or car infrastructure. The Canada Line in Vancouver... the same thing. People thought it wouldn't do well and that they should build an LRT instead. The reason why the Canada Line only runs 40m long trains and had many corners cut was partially because the people in charge, including the city of Richmond, believed that Richmond was not dense enough to support a metro, and that a light metro was overkill. 10 years later and the Canada Line is at crush point and facing capacity issues without platform extensions and a new set of vehicles, and again, they accomplished this without gimping cars.

So no, time and time again "build it and they will come" has been proven to work and to be an effective strategy.
What’s the subsidy cost of GO vs TTC?
 
Fast, affordable, and frequent regional rail has gained traction because it reflects today's current commuting patterns and lifestyle choices.

Certainly, they MUST be connected by a robust local transit system to realise the full potential of the system but their need is growing and will continue to do so faster than local transit. This is because this policy wonk idea of a '15 minute commute' is dreamt up by planners and politicians who don't live in the real world and make a crap load more money than the average citizen.

The 15 minute commute may work for one person but now that 2 working persons in the family are the norm, that 15 minutes for one person may result in an hour for the other. We also change jobs far more frequently than we use to even a generation ago but that doesn't mean people can {or want to} move every time they change jobs. Also, in expensive cities like Toronto, living 15 minutes within your place of employment is a pipe dream that most families cannot engage in especially when they work in downtown areas or better off suburbs...............just because you get a job in a nice area doesn't mean you can afford to live there. Minimum wage, government/hospital/factory/school wages are not any higher in Downtown or Oakville than they are in Dresden or Orangeville.

Due to these work patterns and income realities, speed is of the essence if you want to get people out of their cars and this is where regional rail shows it's strength offering a superior and fast commute at a fraction of the cost of traditional rapid transit.
 
As a counter example, please consider Madrid:


Or, if you want a GTHA example, York, which has built tons of BRT infrastructure and got precious little to show for it.
While I can't say much about Madrid because I don't know anything about it, I can speak for York and why that's doing poorly.

York's problem isn't that the infrastructure isn't there, York's problem is the infrastructure isn't used. Why would anyone use Viva Orange when off peak a bus comes every 20 minutes, no I'm not kidding, its that bad. Viva Blue has consistently been the one route that consistently has a lot of ridership, and the reason for this is because south of Bernard, the off peak frequencies are every 7.5 minutes. No its not frequent because it has ridership, it has ridership because its frequent. (in 2017, Viva Blue had 17.8k riders per weekday compared to the 5.7k Viva Purple has, and that's despite the fact that only Viva Purple had the BRT infrastructure back then). York Region as a matter of fact proves my point. Build it and they will come only works if what you build is actually good and is something people would want to use. Viva built a ton of impressive high cost infrastructure, but it travels so infrequently that absolutely nobody wants to use it because what they built wasn't good. If you have to neuter the alternatives to make what you're building attractive, that basically is an indicator that you should take a second look at what you're building, because you're effectively admitting that what you're making is a downgrade compared to the status quo.

What’s the subsidy cost of GO vs TTC?
Currently GO is subsidized 30% according to a 2017 report and TTC is subsidized 32% in 2018. For the GO number however that might include all of metrolinx and not GO. Either way they're quite similar. However I'm interested in why this is in any way important?

(Edit: I found the numbers for TTC)
 
While I can't say much about Madrid because I don't know anything about it, I can speak for York and why that's doing poorly.

York's problem isn't that the infrastructure isn't there, York's problem is the infrastructure isn't used. Why would anyone use Viva Orange when off peak a bus comes every 20 minutes, no I'm not kidding, its that bad. Viva Blue has consistently been the one route that consistently has a lot of ridership, and the reason for this is because south of Bernard, the off peak frequencies are every 7.5 minutes. No its not frequent because it has ridership, it has ridership because its frequent. (in 2017, Viva Blue had 17.8k riders per weekday compared to the 5.7k Viva Purple has, and that's despite the fact that only Viva Purple had the BRT infrastructure back then). York Region as a matter of fact proves my point. Build it and they will come only works if what you build is actually good and is something people would want to use. Viva built a ton of impressive high cost infrastructure, but it travels so infrequently that absolutely nobody wants to use it because what they built wasn't good. If you have to neuter the alternatives to make what you're building attractive, that basically is an indicator that you should take a second look at what you're building, because you're effectively admitting that what you're making is a downgrade compared to the status quo.


Currently GO is subsidized 30% according to a 2017 report and TTC is subsidized 32% in 2018. For the GO number however that might include all of metrolinx and not GO. Either way they're quite similar. However I'm interested in why this is in any way important?

(Edit: I found the numbers for TTC)
I thought GO was more substantially subsidized than the ttc. It’s relevant because there should be a question of whether it is sustainable or not.
 
I thought GO was more substantially subsidized than the ttc. It’s relevant because there should be a question of whether it is sustainable or not.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

"The farebox recovery ratio (also called fare recovery ratio, fare recovery rate or other terms) of a passenger transportation system is the fraction of operating expenses which are met by the fares paid by passengers. It is computed by dividing the system's total fare revenue by its total operating expenses."

GO Transit 49%
Toronto Transit Commission 68.0%

New York City Transit Authority 47%
Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority 23%
Chicago Transit Authority 55%
Translink (Metro Vancouver) 58.9%
Société de transport de Montréal 46%
 

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