Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[steveintoronto]

Still a problem if you all of sudden you start adding a lot of people at Dupont.

It is, and from some reports I read on the Ryerson site on the Spadina Line Extension, although without referenced actual numbers, some claim that the line *is already* reaching capacity during morning peak as per packed subway cars.. That is a subjective claim, of course, but believable.

Again, I have to ask, for those claiming that Midtown is has "fallen way down the list"....why is Metrolinx investing in refurbishing the ex-CP spur to the Don Valley? It may be faint on the radar, it doesn't mean it's not a potent or pending option. Presuming Midtown coming into use will determine planning for the Yonge and Spadina lines, as opening Summerhill train station is a given when Midtown rises again, it's best the City be prepared to facilitate for the changes to support that.

I see the Bathurst streetcar line extended along the Midtown RoW to Summerhill as *physically* taking a sizable flow fromthere, but certainly not a trainload crush. It would be a good plan, and very affordable in the big scheme of things, but more will be needed. Distribution of loading will be crucial to making any interchange on the Yonge and Spadina lines workable. Spadina streetcar extension to the same RoW could also play a big part, but the streetcars are trapped from easily going north by the present arrangement at Spadina station. The Spadina cars might already be at capacity during peak anyway, I don't have the figures. Bathurst is an underutilized corridor in a number of ways.

The challenge going forward is going to be funding. It seems to me, and to those casting a critical eye on transit spending in the GTHA, that a lot of money is being spent in ineffective ways. I'm being diplomatic...

It's well past time to start making better use and integration of what we already have. And Midtown is a gem. The Missing Link, for the touted $5B, is a bargain compared to what similar might be spent on SSE and other subway follies. The Missing Link alone renders Midtown and many other transit schemes multiples more doable and affordable.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Don't suppose they could also add a new Bay St subway line that goes to Summerhill so people heading south can use that instead.

 

[steveintoronto]

Don't suppose they could also add a new Bay St subway line that goes to Summerhill so people heading south can use that instead.

It's a very valid question! I looked at that, and admittedly not a subway line, that's just completely out of the question, but another streetcar line south from either the Midtown RoW to Summerhill that I suggest for the Bathurst streetcar, or directly to the ground floor of Summerhill on an all street route. Perhaps Church/Davenport/Yonge streetcar to loop at Summerhill train station, but haven't figured out a direct way to do it from Bay to get there. It's worth another look, as again, it's all about *distributing* the trainload that would arrive in a crush, and if most are headed to the core (a given) then streetcars would get them the last mile or so instead of the subway. And buses are out of the question too. Bay St is prime for streetcars again. Perhaps Yonge is too? Or Church? Church would have the advantage of using Davenport to Yonge, and then up Yonge to Summerhill to loop.

Bathurst stands out as an excellent option as all the infrastructure is in place except ramps up to the RoW and tracks across to Summerhill, an easy project compared to starting from scratch again for the other streets. Bay of course, is difficult to tie in due to Davenport heading west.

 

[Forgotten]

Probably a good idea to read the 2009 report along with the 2013, just to get a better perspective. In 2009 the estimate said 8.9-9.6k pphpd in 2021 for the entire extension, with a note that it will have lower loads post-2021. This was using best case growth too, so it's interesting that the numbers more than doubled in the subsequent report when they were supposed to decrease.

For one higher growth/mode share #s were used for the 2013 update. These are ultra-ambitious to the point that they're unrealistic. Not a shot at YR, this is just logical since it hasn't really happened before. Regardless, if we increased the projection out by a decade then we shouldn't be showing parallel GO service of 30mins for 2031. It won't even be running that low in 2021. RTP has Express 5min peak, but even ignoring that outright at least do a side-by-side of 10,15,20min peak service. And I guess also include things like Barrie and Stouffville electrified RER too. They're well outside the catchment, but nonetheless important projects in that they're regional and brand new for the RTP.

And yeah, the costs are going to be very high, but some of that will be due to the new proposal for a yard at 16th. Maybe $5.5bn(2021)? RL may very well see something similar happen if we decide not to use Greenwood.

Leave it to amnesiajune to post misleading information. Counting ridership from stations which have already been cut! Rider counts fall by half as soon as the line reaches Steeles which makes it a natural terminus despite what the anti-Toronto conspiracy nuts might say.

 

[amnesiajune]

If ridership is so low, then why is the city saying that this project can't proceed under any circumstances because it would pack the Yonge Line with tons of new riders?

 

[Cobra]

If ridership is so low, then why is the city saying that this project can't proceed under any circumstances because it would pack the Yonge Line with tons of new riders?

Yonge is already overcapacity during peak time. That's why

 

[Leo_Chan]

If ridership is so low, then why is the city saying that this project can't proceed under any circumstances because it would pack the Yonge Line with tons of new riders?

Low ridership does not mean no ridership.

 

[aquateam]

Don't suppose they could also add a new Bay St subway line that goes to Summerhill so people heading south can use that instead.

It's a very valid question! I looked at that, and admittedly not a subway line, that's just completely out of the question, but another streetcar line south from either the Midtown RoW to Summerhill that I suggest for the Bathurst streetcar, or directly to the ground floor of Summerhill on an all street route. Perhaps Church/Davenport/Yonge streetcar to loop at Summerhill train station, but haven't figured out a direct way to do it from Bay to get there. It's worth another look, as again, it's all about *distributing* the trainload that would arrive in a crush, and if most are headed to the core (a given) then streetcars would get them the last mile or so instead of the subway. And buses are out of the question too. Bay St is prime for streetcars again. Perhaps Yonge is too? Or Church? Church would have the advantage of using Davenport to Yonge, and then up Yonge to Summerhill to loop.

Bathurst stands out as an excellent option as all the infrastructure is in place except ramps up to the RoW and tracks across to Summerhill, an easy project compared to starting from scratch again for the other streets. Bay of course, is difficult to tie in due to Davenport heading west.

If only there were some kind of heavily studied rapid transit line to downtown currently in design that would off-load the Yonge line, providing "Relief" to it...

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Steeles which makes it a natural terminus despite what the anti-Toronto conspiracy nuts might say.

List all the RT converging at Steeles.
Produce maps from anyone - YR OP, The Big Move, Places to Grow etc. - proving that Steeles is a more natural mobility hub than 7/407. Take your time.

And if low ridership doesn't mean no ridership, how can an extension even to Steeles be justified? Wouldn't it be easier if we didn't even go as far north as finch? I mean - what's the goal here? To ensure the subway only goes far enough that people downstream can get on? Clearly the logical move is to go the other way, close every station north of York Mills and that solves the upstream capacity issues, right?

(having Line 1 start 1 street south of the Sheppard subway duplicates the "logic" of starting it south of 7, ever so perfectly)

It's such a fascinating situation, that a subway to Steeles produces just the right amount of ridership, keeping the subway right at capacity, while going north will produce relatively few new riders; just enough to overwhelm the system, but not enough to justify the extension itself. AMAZING!

 

[BMO]

List all the RT converging at Steeles.
Produce maps from anyone - YR OP, The Big Move, Places to Grow etc. - proving that Steeles is a more natural mobility hub than 7/407. Take your time.

And if low ridership doesn't mean no ridership, how can an extension even to steeles be justified? Wouldn't it be easier if we didn't even go as far north as finch? Clearly the logical move is to go the other way, close every station north of York Mills and that solves the upstream capacity issues, right?

(having Line 1 start 1 street south of the Sheppard subway duplicates the "logic" of starting it south of 7, ever so perfectly)

If a Toronto resident rides a subway but nobody is there to witness it, did they really ride the subway? If you live in Toronto it's obviously already assumed you already take the subway so an extension to Steeles shouldn't add any new ridership

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

CONSPIRACY! NATURAL TERMINUS!

CONSPIRACY! BEST TO STOP RAPID TRANSIT 4km SHORT OF HERE!

CONSPIRACY! SUBWAYS SHOULD STOP AT THE NEAREST MUNICIPAL BORDER TO ANY GROWTH CENTRE DESIGNATED UNDER PROVINCIAL LAW TO SEE THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF INTENSIFICATION!

We have always been at war with Eurasia and Steeles has always been the perfect place to stop the subway!

 

[Cobra]

CONSPIRACY! NATURAL TERMINUS!

View attachment 105019

CONSPIRACY! BEST TO STOP RAPID TRANSIT 4km SHORT OF HERE!

View attachment 105029

CONSPIRACY! SUBWAYS SHOULD STOP AT THE NEAREST MUNICIPAL BORDER TO ANY GROWTH CENTRE DESIGNATED UNDER PROVINCIAL LAW TO SEE THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF INTENSIFICATION!

View attachment 105020

We have always been at war with Eurasia and Steeles has always been the perfect place to stop the subway!

Then ask that Metrolinx uploads the TTC already, that's what the PC wanted to do last election. There's nothing ridiculous about the TTC and the city of Toronto not wanting to go past Steeles...geez. Advocate for that instead and then you'd have a point

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Then ask that Metrolinx uploads the TTC already, that's what the PC wanted to do last election. There's nothing ridiculous about the TTC and the city of Toronto not wanting to go past Steeles...geez. Advocate for that instead and then you'd have a point

That's not what Forgotten said; he said Steeles was the "natural terminus," and that only "conspiracy nuts" think anything else makes sense, which is false. you're right to the extent it "makes sense" that TORONTO shouldn't "have to" extend (or pay to operate) a subway outside Toronto. Indeed, that's the only sense in which making the effort to go from Finch to Steeles can be justified, which is why it never will be.

but to imply - assuming the governance/funding issues were resolved - that there is no logic for going further north is absurd. There's plenty of logic to it. We're being held back by our outdated system, not the logic of planning and population growth.

 

[Cobra]

That's not what Forgotten said; he said Steeles was the "natural terminus," and that only "conspiracy nuts" think anything else makes sense, which is false. you're right to the extent it "makes sense" that TORONTO shouldn't "have to" extend (or pay to operate) a subway outside Toronto. Indeed, that's the only sense in which making the effort to go from Finch to Steeles can be justified, which is why it never will be.

but to imply - assuming the governance/funding issues were resolved - that there is no logic for going further north is absurd. There's plenty of logic to it. We're being held back by our outdated system, not the logic of planning and population growth.

Steeles is the natural teminus of the subway but not regional transit in general. RHC is a transit hub in my opinion. You and I just disagree on the the mode that should be used between RHC and Steeles

 

[narduch]

I don't think York U. wanted to be a terminus.

Saying Steeles is a natural terminus for the Yonge line shows absolutely zero knowledge of the Yonge + Steeles area.