Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[WislaHD]

Probably a fatal flaw I haven't thought of.

The typical Toronto driver, maybe?

 

[crs1026]

I've entertained some wacky ideas about this stretch of road. Bear with me...

• Leave the stops at major intersections at grade. No elevators, quick access, cheap and low-maintenance.
• Ban left turns and build the U-turn points / Michigan lefts / whatever.
• Grade-separate LRT under the U-turn points, not the intersections.

No conflicts or delays, easier access, cheaper to build, more energy efficient as vehicles accelerate down from stops and decelerate up towards them.
Probably a fatal flaw I haven't thought of.

Not a bad idea, in all.

i wonder about space. The U-turn idea requires right turn lanes at the intersections, which the planners were not totally enamoured with. Thanks to RoFo's regrettable fire sale on developable land, that lane may not fit in the intersections, without sacrificing on pedestrian and bicycle space, at least.

- Paul

 

[BurlOak]

The only thing I fault this MPP for is the continued advocacy of midblock stops. How would that even work in a grade-separated scenario? Give up on that,

I agree the mid-block stops should be eliminated - both for speed and for cost in the grade-separated scenario. The key is for the bus to serve the mid-block areas.

and add back in a grade-separated East Mall station (which could be elevated given the topography in that area). Then perfection.

What is within walking distance of a potential East Mall stop - a small strip mall on the SW corner, a creek on the East, and freeways all around. The East Mall bus just needs to stop at the grade-separated Martin Grove Station.

Now where's the East End's grade-separation champion? Don Mills to UTSC needs to be grade-separated too.

I think its too lake for Eglinton East. Beyond Don Mills to UTSC, the even worse decision was to not grade-separate from Laird to Don Mills. At the time 5 years ago, all provincial and municipal politicians prioritized defeating Ford and would not support any grade-separation plan that looked like Ford would support. It would have been super easy to grade-separate from Brentcliffe to Don Mills, and also easy enough from Don Mills to Kennedy. However, we will suffer long into the future because of the actions of these politicians in the past 5 years.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I've entertained some wacky ideas about this stretch of road. Bear with me...

• Leave the stops at major intersections at grade. No elevators, quick access, cheap and low-maintenance.
• Ban left turns and build the U-turn points / Michigan lefts / whatever.
• Grade-separate LRT under the U-turn points, not the intersections.

No conflicts or delays, easier access, cheaper to build, more energy efficient as vehicles accelerate down from stops and decelerate up towards them.
Probably a fatal flaw I haven't thought of.

The typical Toronto driver, maybe?

Well, I don't think drivers will have to be happy about having to drive further to make a U turn to make a turn they've always been able to make.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What are these maps describing?

 

[BurlOak]

1) Ideal stop spacing for grade-separated Eglinton line.
2) Bus routes around Eglinton.

 

[Voltz]

I think its too lake for Eglinton East. Beyond Don Mills to UTSC, the even worse decision was to not grade-separate from Laird to Don Mills. At the time 5 years ago, all provincial and municipal politicians prioritized defeating Ford and would not support any grade-separation plan that looked like Ford would support. It would have been super easy to grade-separate from Brentcliffe to Don Mills, and also easy enough from Don Mills to Kennedy. However, we will suffer long into the future because of the actions of these politicians in the past 5 years.

That's not why they didn't grade separate to Don Mills, they dropped plans to extend the tunnel to Don Mills because a local community group got inexplicably up in arms about loosing the stop at Leslie and and the local councillor took up the cause. As well the delay of a few months needed to change the plans would have delayed tendering the eastern tunnel contract and it looked like the liberals were at risk of losing the upcoming election, and if they had lost without the eastern tunnels being awarded then entire line east of Yonge would have been at risk.

 

[Steve X]

I agree the mid-block stops should be eliminated - both for speed and for cost in the grade-separated scenario. The key is for the bus to serve the mid-block areas.

What is within walking distance of a potential East Mall stop - a small strip mall on the SW corner, a creek on the East, and freeways all around. The East Mall bus just needs to stop at the grade-separated Martin Grove Station.

I think its too lake for Eglinton East. Beyond Don Mills to UTSC, the even worse decision was to not grade-separate from Laird to Don Mills. At the time 5 years ago, all provincial and municipal politicians prioritized defeating Ford and would not support any grade-separation plan that looked like Ford would support. It would have been super easy to grade-separate from Brentcliffe to Don Mills, and also easy enough from Don Mills to Kennedy. However, we will suffer long into the future because of the actions of these politicians in the past 5 years.
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The 52G cannot loop in a elementary school and then a high school parking lot along with the 111. Stop trying to kill the kids please. The 405 is not a regular TTC service. It runs every 90 minutes from 9am-3pm weekdays only. The TTC do not want to want to run parallel bus service.

A few more minutes on everyone's trip isn't going to hurt but a 30min wait plus loop around on the 405 is a major inconvenience for those who use those stops. I don't know why some of you really plan on screwing up the minority that use those stops. Unless the LRT is fully grade separated, they won't be allowed to operate faster than the roadway's speed limit which is 60km/h.

 

[BurlOak]

Agree to some degree.

• The above was posted assuming the Eglinton LRT is fully grade-separated. The mid-block stations would add too much to the cost, and add to the travel time.
• The mid-block passengers could either walk to the nearest station or if they are elderly, wait for the bus. It would be an improved 405 bus.
• Just trying to convey that a local bus would be better than a bus along Eglinton.
• I would suspect the loop at the high school may be acceptable as it gets the kids a stop right near their school - or right at the north edge of their school as that area will likely be taken over by the station (the Martin Grove bus would also stop here).
• The one at the elementary school is a bit more questionable. I don't know why I didn't just turn down Martin Grove.

 

[Palma]

That's not why they didn't grade separate to Don Mills, they dropped plans to extend the tunnel to Don Mills because a local community group got inexplicably up in arms about loosing the stop at Leslie and and the local councillor took up the cause. As well the delay of a few months needed to change the plans would have delayed tendering the eastern tunnel contract and it looked like the liberals were at risk of losing the upcoming election, and if they had lost without the eastern tunnels being awarded then entire line east of Yonge would have been at risk.

how many times do residents complain about something yet Metrolinx does not listen. Why should this case have been any different? I remember complaining where all 3 stops at Keele would be. I felt that instead of at Tretheway and Eglinton it shouldahve been at Keele and Eglinton to take advantage of all the neighbourhoods north of Englinton. When Metrolinx finished their write up on the meeting and posted the information, the LRT stop point I made was brought up by others. Now I did not call my councillor to complain. I certainly did not think it would have made a difference and regret it now that it may have

 

[BurlOak]

That's not why they didn't grade separate to Don Mills, they dropped plans to extend the tunnel to Don Mills because a local community group got inexplicably up in arms about loosing the stop at Leslie and and the local councillor took up the cause. As well the delay of a few months needed to change the plans would have delayed tendering the eastern tunnel contract and it looked like the liberals were at risk of losing the upcoming election, and if they had lost without the eastern tunnels being awarded then entire line east of Yonge would have been at risk.

It was dropped because Metrolinx lied to the public. They said it was impossible to build the LRT portal on the West Don River hill and had to tunnel all the way to Don Mills. Instead of proposing a south side alignment (which would have required a portal on the West Don River hill), they said the only way to build the line was to tunnel to Don Mills.
And I recall they said an underground station at Leslie would be $60M. Compared to the extra $1.5B (compared to the SRT corridor LRT) we are spending on extending the B-D subway extension, it still would have been a bargain.

 

[Steve X]

Agree to some degree.

• The above was posted assuming the Eglinton LRT is fully grade-separated. The mid-block stations would add too much to the cost, and add to the travel time.
• The mid-block passengers could either walk to the nearest station or if they are elderly, wait for the bus. It would be an improved 405 bus.
• Just trying to convey that a local bus would be better than a bus along Eglinton.
• I would suspect the loop at the high school may be acceptable as it gets the kids a stop right near their school - or right at the north edge of their school as that area will likely be taken over by the station (the Martin Grove bus would also stop here).
• The one at the elementary school is a bit more questionable. I don't know why I didn't just turn down Martin Grove.

It really depends on what type of grade separation is used. If we're talking about tunneling, yes it would be expensive to add additional stations. If we're talking about trenching similar to Humber College, additional stations cost would be similar to the Mississauga Transitway stations. A complete trench option cannot proceed today as development is underway along Eglinton. This leaves a full subway option in the case of a fully grade separated line. The cost simply doesn't justify compare to a few overpasses for grade separation in selected location. I think an elevated structure is still very possible and would be a good fit for Martin Grove/Eglinton. The bus loop could be in NE corner.

BTW, the 52G is not very reliable. You could be waiting 35 minute for this supposedly 11-14 minute service specially between 3-9pm. This branch of 52 doesn't fix itself till the late evening with frequent short turns even at 9pm.

 

[Hopkins123]

It was dropped because Metrolinx lied to the public. They said it was impossible to build the LRT portal on the West Don River hill and had to tunnel all the way to Don Mills. Instead of proposing a south side alignment (which would have required a portal on the West Don River hill), they said the only way to build the line was to tunnel to Don Mills.
And I recall they said an underground station at Leslie would be $60M. Compared to the extra $1.5B (compared to the SRT corridor LRT) we are spending on extending the B-D subway extension, it still would have been a bargain.

$60 million to make the Leslie/Sunnybrook Park Station underground. That's all? Instead, they're deliberately making the whole line operationally slower than it has to be to the ire of all its commuters. Shame.

 

[WislaHD]

$60 million to make the Leslie/Sunnybrook Park Station underground. That's all? Instead, they're deliberately making the whole line operationally slower than it has to be to the ire of all its commuters. Shame.

Crazy, yes.

We could have been shortturning trains at Don Mills instead of at Laird.

 

[BurlOak]

Crazy yes, but that was the political mood back in 2012 - both on City Council and with the Provincial Government (i.e. Metrolinx). There was no thought to transit - just figuring out how to defeat Ford.

Up until early this year, I thought the best solution was to tear up a couple of hundred metres of the tunnel West of the portal and relocate the tunnel south a bit. It could then follow a south side alignment to Don Mills.
Now that the Don Mills station is under construction, I think the station is too deep and too far East to allow the LRT line to elevate over the DVP. Thus, redoing the portal cannot achieve full grade-separation and would only accomplish moving the turnback to Don Mills - and I am not sure that's worth it.