Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[aquateam]

An interesting question would be whether the contract with the TTC is fully recovering the cost of adding TTC to the mix, with all the added programming and complexity.

I hear grumblings from some 905 transit types who suspect they may be subsidising an under-recovery of costs associated with the TTC implementation. Considering that the 905 had moved to Presto sooner, and had achieved a stable implementation that didn't require added bells or whistles, it's not clear why they would be asked to pay more. I'm told that the cost to these agencies could end up being greater than the cost of returning to a cash-and-paper-transfer regime.

- Paul

I would expect that even with the additional development overhead for the TTC's requirements, the sheer volume of TTC transactions would dwarf that in the 905 and provide economies of scale and additional revenue that would end up lowering the operating costs. I.e. once Presto is implemented, the TTC will be responsible for about 90% of Presto's revenue and it should be cheaper for the 905.

I'm quite bewildered about why this costs so much, and this gives me questions about the value of these fare cards. Are electronic payments worth the service improvements that hundreds of millions of dollars of fare revenue could pay for? If PRESTO cost anywhere near 15% of TTC fare revenue, I think I'd much rather go back to cash payments.

15% is an extreme amount and it's bizarre that it would cost that much. I thought that an electronic fare medium was supposed to *save* money: no more manufacturing tokens, no more armoured guards, no daily collections of armoured trucks and no more counting nickels and dimes and coins.

Although the way Presto works sound really inefficient to me. Don't they bring the readers to some central processing area every 24 hours instead of having it update in real-time through SMS/wifi/LTE, which is why it takes time to have a balance appear on the card? Basically treating the readers as expensive coin tins.

 

[crs1026]

This is bewildering to me also. It is the kind of issue that we have Auditor-Generals to investigate. Presto has had one A-G audit but that was before the TTC initiative began. Maybe it's time for another.

A really not so radical solution:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2013/06/fares

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Should we have went with an open payment system? It seems like it would've saved quite a lot of money.

 

[rbt]

Should we have went with an open payment system? It seems like it would've saved quite a lot of money.

TTC did. Their model of Presto after Phase 5 (2017ish) will be largely compliant and redoing Presto in this manner (what they should have started with in 2004) has been a major cause of the delays to implementation.

What TTC didn't do was an open tender, though I don't have any complaints with the TTC fees. What we don't know is if Metrolinx is subsidizing the implementation (well, we know they are now) and will they try to escalate the price in the near future.

 

[nfitz]

What TTC didn't do was an open tender, though I don't have any complaints with the TTC fees. What we don't know is if Metrolinx is subsidizing the implementation (well, we know they are now) and will they try to escalate the price in the near future.

Yes they did. See http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com...2010_Special/Reports/Automatic_Fare_Colle.pdf and https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2010/10/01/ttc_slows_smart_card_decision_after_warning.html

The tender went out. Stintz failed to award the contract.

 

[rbt]

Yes they did. See http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com...2010_Special/Reports/Automatic_Fare_Colle.pdf and https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2010/10/01/ttc_slows_smart_card_decision_after_warning.html

The tender went out. Stintz failed to award the contract.

Well, yeah. They did an open tender but the eventual contract recipient (Metolinx) did not compete within that framework nor are they bound by the details set out in that tender.

 

[Megaton327]

The main entrance at Bay station now has Presto faregates.

According to Presto's twitter responding to a question Presto is also for sale at Bay's Pass Vending Machines, so it looks like they're being smart about making sure that's available day 1 at all newly-Presto-accepting/faregate stations.

Brad has said that the automatic entrance for Bay on Cumberland is coming "in a few weeks".

Still no word on Sherbourne but feels like it should be soon. Wellesley opened a few days ago.

 

[Voltz]

Yes they did. See http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com...2010_Special/Reports/Automatic_Fare_Colle.pdf and https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2010/10/01/ttc_slows_smart_card_decision_after_warning.html

The tender went out. Stintz failed to award the contract.

Because the Province would have pulled funding for other things, like the streetcars, possibly the LRT lines if they did not go with presto.

 

[Steve X]

The main entrance at Bay station now has Presto faregates.

According to Presto's twitter responding to a question Presto is also for sale at Bay's Pass Vending Machines, so it looks like they're being smart about making sure that's available day 1 at all newly-Presto-accepting/faregate stations.

Brad has said that the automatic entrance for Bay on Cumberland is coming "in a few weeks".

Still no word on Sherbourne but feels like it should be soon. Wellesley opened a few days ago.

Wellesley open more than a week ago and a couple of gates aren't working. The accessible gate is broken with one door half opened at a 45 degree angle. I wonder if someone rammed the gate.
What a shame that people have to wait since only one working gate for metropass there. All the lonely presto gates are sliently crying "use me please"

 

[TransitBart]

So great to be having a discussion about modern fare media instead of listening to Toronto politicians blather about "world class" and then going to a station to shove a piece of aluminium into a WW II era turnstyle. In Hong Kong, most residents keep the Octopus card on one side of their wallets and never take it out. They tap their whole wallet against the reader for tap in and tap out.

Count 'em...Fare gates with Presto in service at Main Street, Sherbourne, Wellesley and Bay. And an end to that absurd expression - "automatic entrance". I lived next to one as a kid, but there was no such thing as a kid token. It was basically a waste of real estate, steel, concrete and stairs. For the Line 2 50th anniversary this year, we can celebrate the end of this antiquated garbage.

No doubt tough - and real - negotiations are to come on cost and running Presto efficiently, but a huge step for a city which is the fourth largest in North America with a transit system of say, a small European city.

Btw - you are world-class when people say it about you. Not when you say it yourself. Politicians, take note and get on with building it.

 

[TransitBart]

I'm gonna reply to my own post because it made me think of three things.

1. Are there "kid" Presto fares anywhere? I'd have needed that as a kid for school.
2. What prevents me from using a kid Presto card if there is one if I'm a cheapskate (or crook)?
3. For the city's no charge child fare - are they going to give out "no charge" Presto cards? No charge to the user, but subsidized by the rest.

 

[Palma]

30 cent transaction costs are massive for this kind of thing. That doesn't include equipment either.

Presto is mandated by the province but local politicians could still futz with pricing to have a cash fare of $3 and a Presto fare of $3.15 or something.

Basically cost ($2.80) + overhead of payment method.

I an trying to understand this Presto card. I need to buy ttc tokens., say for 3 tokens its $8.70 (2.90 per token). Now if I use debit card, I am debited $8.70. Now if I have a Presto card, am I not also debited $8.70 to load onto card for technically 3 TTC trips? Or are customers charged a fee with that $8.70? Is this what I am understanding from this fee service? I am trying to understand, in this age of smart everything, why would customers need to pay a fee to load something onto a card? If I go to Starbuck and buy a $20.00 card, I believe they are now relaodable. Are customers charged an additional fee at Starbucks? I would hope not cause its cheaper for Starbucks not to have to manufacturer so many cards, but just make them reloadable. People are already paying monthly fees for debit cards. For some its a flat fee so now with this Presto card they are being told its an additional fee? If this is true, now i understand why TTC was also against it even though there are other reason

 

[Palma]

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[Palma]

I'm quite bewildered about why this costs so much, and this gives me questions about the value of these fare cards. Are electronic payments worth the service improvements that hundreds of millions of dollars of fare revenue could pay for? If PRESTO cost anywhere near 15% of TTC fare revenue, I think I'd much rather go back to cash payments.

exactly. What happened to this saving on tickets, tokens, having someone get them bring them someplace, yada, yada

 

[Palma]

Because the Province would have pulled funding for other things, like the streetcars, possibly the LRT lines if they did not go with presto.

The TTC should have made this this an issue as should have city council especially during the last election.