Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[H4F33Z]

I also think the city would rather just make the Yonge North area more walkable, bikeable and improve local buses as part of area plans so the distance between Cummer Avenue and Steeles/Finch Station is more bearable. It's not ideal, but it's not the end of the world for the area. It's what the city was planning to do regardless.

 

[wopchop]

my understanding is all of it, mostly from revenue from the Yonge / 7 development which is absurdly dense. Lots of funds to collect from that area. It's like 40,000+ units.

OK, but have they actually said that? That's a lot of dough, $12.5K per unit on average.

 

[Sunnyside]

OK, but have they actually said that? That's a lot of dough, $12.5K per unit on average.

Lol- in terms of DCs, fees, taxes, etc. per unit, that's not much. A little low at first glance even, but with the sheer number of units, is likely about right.

 

[innsertnamehere]

OK, but have they actually said that? That's a lot of dough, $12.5K per unit on average.

Those units will probably sell for like $800-1,000k on average - 1-2% going to transit is small change.

 

[wopchop]

Lol- in terms of DCs, fees, taxes, etc. per unit, that's not much. A little low at first glance even, but with the sheer number of units, is likely about right.

Those units will probably sell for like $800-1,000k on average - 1-2% going to transit is small change.

Again, assumptions. Not saying you are wrong, but nowhere (that I see) has the government said it will be 100% funded by this method.

Also, I don't believe the average condo price in Vaughan is quite that high. Even in VMC on the subway it is lower than that.

 

[rbt]

OK, but have they actually said that? That's a lot of dough, $12.5K per unit on average.

It would be a lot more than that if the developers are expected to pre-build the station. An average of 15 years financing though to building registration at commercial rates (~12% at the moment) would bring it up closer to $40k/unit.

 

[Rainforest]

Sure, we could do that, but I don’t think the issue is necessarily if it’s too expensive for Toronto alone (though it likely is). It’s just a lot of money for any party to spend on questionable merits. The province is just not interested, period- splitting the cost doesn’t make it any better use of public money.

If that $500M can materialize between both levels of government, then it’s probably better spent on some other project. This is enough $ to build a good chunk of the WE LRT for instance.

Edit- or the SmartTrack stations.

I dunno. On one hand, people complain about the absence of the Willowdale station on the Sheppard line. Even though the residents don't want a station there, and if built, it won't be any cheaper than the Cummer station on Yonge.

On the other hand, we have an existing high density and an established transit ridership around the Cummer station, but we want to skip that station.

It is easy to predict that the bus service will get cut dramatically once the subway extension opens. No more #53 and #60, only the infrequent #97. Plus the #42/#125 that only serve Yonge between Cummer and Finch.

 

[Sunnyside]

Again, assumptions. Not saying you are wrong, but nowhere (that I see) has the government said it will be 100% funded by this method.

Also, I don't believe the average condo price in Vaughan is quite that high. Even in VMC on the subway it is lower than that.

Yes, but Thornhill/Richmond Hill isn’t Vaughan- your not selling people a condo in the middle of a massive industrial zone. It is a fairly expensive area as-is, nevermind with a subway.

I can’t really say about the financing method or the station’s offset cost through it. I’ve never heard the phrasing that all of a projects’ planned TOD would directly pay for the cost of an entire station or component of a project, like a single station. I usually see it shown as a proportion of the overall cost, or in terms of near term+long term or direct+indirect returns on the infrastructure investment.

Also, a caveat: cases where developers pay to extend/move a transit line nearby are evidently a bit different.

With that, it’s still not hard to believe that all TOD/TOCs could pay for what amounts to one or two stations almost immediately, given the rate of population growth and value of our real estate. It would need to be seen in writing for us to confirm, of course.

 

[Sunnyside]

I dunno. On one hand, people complain about the absence of the Willowdale station on the Sheppard line. Even though the residents don't want a station there, and if built, it won't be any cheaper than the Cummer station on Yonge.

On the other hand, we have an existing high density and an established transit ridership around the Cummer station, but we want to skip that station.

It is easy to predict that the bus service will get cut dramatically once the subway extension opens. No more #53 and #60, only the infrequent #97. Plus the #42/#125 that only serve Yonge between Cummer and Finch.

I suppose it’s a fair concern that some of these routes will be removed, but the majority of potential users (those along Cummer/Drewry, not only those within 400m of Yonge/Cummer) already only have the 42 to get to Finch Station. This is only an issue if you are along Yonge st, which could be said about countless other locations on Yonge for people relying on a 97. So, that existing ridership will remain.

The reason im suggesting we are skipping Cummer has little to do with the catchment population, although NYCC will be spreading north. It’s mostly the proximity to Finch Station (which is north of Finch Ave itself)- and by extension, the sheer cost in the face of such uncertainties. Generally speaking, most (not all) subway stations we build are more justified than this.

In all honesty, the added $100M or so to build this as an infill station later is a small penalty- if we aren’t sure we need to spend limited city dollars, then perhaps it’s better to wait. If this is a mistake and we need the station, then it will justify itself and we can pay the (relatively) small penalty.

 

[Paclo]

Metrolinx project update presented to Markham council yesterday.

 

[shortbranch]

TNSE Metrolinx Community Centre opening here...
295 High Tech Rd., Richmond Hill, ON

 

[Jaye101]

I suppose it’s a fair concern that some of these routes will be removed, but the majority of potential users (those along Cummer/Drewry, not only those within 400m of Yonge/Cummer) already only have the 42 to get to Finch Station. This is only an issue if you are along Yonge st, which could be said about countless other locations on Yonge for people relying on a 97. So, that existing ridership will remain.

The reason im suggesting we are skipping Cummer has little to do with the catchment population, although NYCC will be spreading north. It’s mostly the proximity to Finch Station (which is north of Finch Ave itself)- and by extension, the sheer cost in the face of such uncertainties. Generally speaking, most (not all) subway stations we build are more justified than this.

In all honesty, the added $100M or so to build this as an infill station later is a small penalty- if we aren’t sure we need to spend limited city dollars, then perhaps it’s better to wait. If this is a mistake and we need the station, then it will justify itself and we can pay the (relatively) small penalty.

I think we forget this is the Toronto Subway, plans for Cummer station have existed for decades. If any cost cutting measures are to be taken, surely it would be north of Steeles.

 

[Sunnyside]

I think we forget this is the Toronto Subway, plans for Cummer station have existed for decades. If any cost cutting measures are to be taken, surely it would be north of Steeles.

Well, it’s a Metrolinx project… but yes, and that’s why if Toronto wants it, they can pay for it.

 

[Jaye101]

Well, it’s a Metrolinx project… but yes, and that’s why if Toronto wants it, they can pay for it.

I'm sorry? Do the regions around Toronto contribute to the TTC subways operations, capital projects such as Signal Upgrades, station upgrades, fleet etc., which directly enable these extensions to suburbia? Or are we supposed to bite the bullet like we already do maintaining highways mainly driven on by 905ers. If any station is getting cut it shouldn't be Cummer.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I'm sorry? Do the regions around Toronto contribute to the TTC subways operations, capital projects such as Signal Upgrades, station upgrades, fleet etc., which directly enable these extensions to suburbia? Or are we supposed to bite the bullet like we already do maintaining highways mainly driven on by 905ers. If any station is getting cut it shouldn't be Cummer.

Oh, it's like a 2012 UT post about YNSE. that got reposted here?

I mean, it did get cut (at least relative to the other stations) so whatever abstract concept of "justice" may underpin this logic doesn't mean much. Maybe that'll change later this year?
Royal Orchard, Cummer and Clark were all cut, with 1 promised to return, based on analysis. That was Clark, which makes sense, IMHO.
Royal Orchard vs Cummer is definitely dicier but at least, so the argument goes, Royal Orchard got funded by the TOCs approved to the north. Cummer is also on the bubble, but without a TOC to help fund it, apparently.
That's how it shakes out.

"Suburbia," I guess is the vast gulf separating the north side of Steeles from the south side? It's, like, a real thing? We're gonna start quibbling about highways (allegedly) driven by 905er who, I presume, spend money at restaurants or work at offices in Toronto? Torontonians would never drive on a highway?. Never work way out there in suburbia? Just obsolete thinking, IMHO.

(Also, TTC's fleet, among other things, receives federal and Provincial funding so if you're wondering whether 905ers contribute to it, the answer is definitely a yes; so do people in Sudbury, Kelowna and Halifax, whether they like it or not.)

I've been tired of this "But Toronto pays for TTC!" thing forever because it's kind of the only thing resembling an argument:. It's basically, "Our transit funding model is outmoded and absurd, so how can you argue lines should go to where the ridres actually are when someone drew a line on a map 50 years ago in a different place!?" I look forward to the fare integration coming this year putting an end to having it thrown out in forums like this again.

In the meantime, I don't have strong feelings about whehter they build Cummer or not and Toronto has already decided they'd rather keep taxes low and spend money the paltry money they do have on stuff like the Gardiner and imaginary parks over rail corridors where they don't even own the land/air rights, so I'm not going to lose sleep if it isn't built either.