Toronto Time and Space Condos | 101.8m | 29s | Pemberton | Wallman

Indeed, perhaps. But Pemberton isn't going to go down in flames without a fight.. and that meant a protracted OMB battle that the City ultimately probably would have lost. There were many iterations here before the final design was landed on - many of them better than the final design, IMO.

This is probably the best Pemberton came forward with:


177-front-street-jpg.50223

I think the first render would have met the St. Lawrence neighborhood, especially the south end, much better than the final product.
 
I do think there is blame on Pemberton by creating a situation in negotiations where they couldn't settle for anything less than ridiculous - I also think there is blame on the City for opposing height here so adamantly that they accepted some serious concessions on built form that they shouldn't have otherwise to get the height down. In my opinion height was never a problem here - but given the context at the time the City would never have supported height, and on that basis they should have done an OMB hearing on the matter instead of settling for the ridiculous built form we got.

Exactly this.

I would only add that the city would probably have lost at the board, and should have lost. This is the middle of downtown, 1km from Union Station. Under the Growth Plan this should be a zone for serious intensification. City Planning's arguments never made any sense.


So while this project is very bad, and Pemberton and Wallman own most of that failure, they don't own all of it.
 
So, something like the Whitfield can go get 39s because it’s on Front, but anything that bordered Esplanade couldn’t get height? Was that the general idea?

Looking at the other designs, I dunno. I mean, we got what we got there’s no changing it now. But I don’t see a winner in the other pitches.

I just hate how we’ve been building the last few years with a “toy soldier” mindset- where urbanism is just a bunch of ideologues massing people like lifeless plastic toys, thinking that’s a strategy.

Two tall towers. One big Borg. I dunno, tell me what the Sherbourne and King streetcar stop looks like at 8am. What’s the streets like mid morning on a Saturday. How many people in T&S are taking part in Jami Hub on the esplanade, or is the mindset to bolt to the suburbs on the weekend because the building is uncomfortable and there’s too many people around?

when you open any random app, there’s likely been more consideration in user experience/UX design than we do on building in this city. Like, Duolingo has teams of people asking themselves “what is it REALLY like to experience this” as they tweak a single button via committee. Meanwhile, we’re competing to stack bodies in a game of architecture and finance.

I think in 20yrs we’ll be furrowing brows and admitting we screwed up in empowering developers as we cheered on a downtown density that never solved the housing crisis.
 
So, something like the Whitfield can go get 39s because it’s on Front, but anything that bordered Esplanade couldn’t get height? Was that the general idea?

Looking at the other designs, I dunno. I mean, we got what we got there’s no changing it now. But I don’t see a winner in the other pitches.

I just hate how we’ve been building the last few years with a “toy soldier” mindset- where urbanism is just a bunch of ideologues massing people like lifeless plastic toys, thinking that’s a strategy.

Two tall towers. One big Borg. I dunno, tell me what the Sherbourne and King streetcar stop looks like at 8am. What’s the streets like mid morning on a Saturday. How many people in T&S are taking part in Jami Hub on the esplanade, or is the mindset to bolt to the suburbs on the weekend because the building is uncomfortable and there’s too many people around?

when you open any random app, there’s likely been more consideration in user experience/UX design than we do on building in this city. Like, Duolingo has teams of people asking themselves “what is it REALLY like to experience this” as they tweak a single button via committee. Meanwhile, we’re competing to stack bodies in a game of architecture and finance.

I think in 20yrs we’ll be furrowing brows and admitting we screwed up in empowering developers as we cheered on a downtown density that never solved the housing crisis.
The Whitfield didn't get zoning approval for another 5 years after Time and Space, and at that time the planning context in the east end of downtown had changed significantly - namely, there was now a subway line coming for the east end.

This part of the city is already close enough to downtown that it shouldn't have mattered how tall buildings were, as @AlexBozikovic rightly points out - but the subway is what changed Plannings tune.

In terms of "blame" here, I think a lot of the built form is to blame on city planning - but there is a lot of blame to go to Pemberton and Wallman too in finishes, landscaping treatments, architectural design, and the overall crazy density.
 
In terms of "blame" here, I think a lot of the built form is to blame on city planning - but there is a lot of blame to go to Pemberton and Wallman too in finishes, landscaping treatments, architectural design, and the overall crazy density.

I'm going to start by coming back to the idea that in general, government should deliver what the people want. That's a fundamental tenet of democracy. We all recognize that there is a need for compromise and sometimes tough medicine, and equally, that change of any kind can be difficult. For all of that.....the end game goal should be to make the broadest number of people happy with the society they've built.

This applies to social programs, healthcare, policing/crime, and architecture/planning.

In that context, outside of urban fora, skyscraper geeks, developers and some critics..........the public is broadly opposed to tower-dominant communities. I'm not opposed to towers, but I am opposed to their over-use and to the failures in their design that fail to respect what people like.

Even here on UT, among skyscraper fans, there is a general agreement on consistently bad at-grade/podium/retail expresssion, and a general lament for lack of colour and variation in design.

The broader public is much harsher. Given a choice, the largest number of people prefer an SFH/low-rise configuration to their communities, with some midrise on main streets.

The next most popular expressions are low-rise apartment/row house, and midrise architecture on main streets; followed by midrise dominant forms.

Tower-dominant forms consistently come out at the bottom. They're also the most expensive to build on a per ft2 basis, and only make sense because of artificially goosed land prices.

Tower-dominant forms also have the lowest environmental performance. A typical SFH does better when considering everything from carbon-intensivity in construction, to energy efficiency to retaining permeable landscapes with
biodiversity, to the urban heat island effect.

****

We keep coming back to this idea that the City and developers should be allowed to impose their will no matter how unpopular and how objectively bad the ecological performance and cost numbers end up being.

I fundamentally disagree; I would reverse this entirely starting with abolishing any appeal of Council decisions other than through divisional court based on denial of due process; and then move on to impose minimum unit sizes, which would be vastly larger than what's being built.

I would also set a maximum evacuation time for a building that would virtually outlaw most residential hirises, setting a very high barrier on fire proofing, fire and smoke mitigation that would make it prohibitive to go tall in most cases. I would also require that you can never build to a height that wouldn't get water service without the use of pumps.

I'm fine with height, I'm fine with density, I generally agree with most people that typical suburban sprawl is ick, too car-centric, insufficiently dense and too expensive to service.

But I don't want the opposite either. Too crowded, too dense, too expensive to build, too expensive to operate, too endangering for residents, and just too damned ugly.

****

Ok.....I think we're getting a tad OT, which I will agree to having contributed to, but time to move along.
 
I think another important point which was raised throughout this discussion is Pemberton overpaying for this site which highlights another problem; developers overpaying for sites and then realizing they screwed up, and turn around to start lobbying provincial boards or the province directly to help them rectify their cock up.

It's not the city's fault -nor it's residents- that you (insert developer) dont know how to do your math homework properly, and then have to beg politicians for: a) exemptions, b) special zoning orders, c) protracted and long planning board cases, in order to justify the bad analysis work by a private firm (aka themselves).

Pemberton pushed and pushed for an overbearing load of crap on an area where something like this shouldn't have been built, and they pushed because they needed to justify and get a profit off of their own screw up. So why should the public have to pay the price for a developer's bad decision making?

And they're not the only developer guilty of this, we're seeing something similar unfold in East Harbour with Cadillac Fairview trying to justify their bad decision by lobbying the province to make changes. There are other examples of various forms of this kind of non-sense happening as well.

The government needs to stop bending to developers, and that would force them to get their act together and actually do proper due diligence and planning before coming up with idiotic builds which dont contribute nothing to the city, and in some cases do more harm than good. There are many developers who actually take their time to plan properly, but then we get cases like Pemberton who cock things up and then go and whine to the government, even though they manifested their own screw up.
 
I think another important point which was raised throughout this discussion is Pemberton overpaying for this site which highlights another problem; developers overpaying for sites and then realizing they screwed up, and turn around to start lobbying provincial boards or the province directly to help them rectify their cock up.

It's not the city's fault -nor it's residents- that you (insert developer) dont know how to do your math homework properly, and then have to beg politicians for: a) exemptions, b) special zoning orders, c) protracted and long planning board cases, in order to justify the bad analysis work by a private firm (aka themselves).

Pemberton pushed and pushed for an overbearing load of crap on an area where something like this shouldn't have been built, and they pushed because they needed to justify and get a profit off of their own screw up. So why should the public have to pay the price for a developer's bad decision making?

And they're not the only developer guilty of this, we're seeing something similar unfold in East Harbour with Cadillac Fairview trying to justify their bad decision by lobbying the province to make changes. There are other examples of various forms of this kind of non-sense happening as well.

The government needs to stop bending to developers, and that would force them to get their act together and actually do proper due diligence and planning before coming up with idiotic builds which dont contribute nothing to the city, and in some cases do more harm than good. There are many developers who actually take their time to plan properly, but then we get cases like Pemberton who cock things up and then go and whine to the government, even though they manifested their own screw up.
I do not disagree with you that developers need to avoid overspending on sites and then run around crying fire and demanding concessions to help them to make a profit nor to the fact the Pemberton paid a LOT of money for the site. Where we differ is that I do not think Pemberton got special treatment. They built to the maximum because of an old OMB decision that allowed a building to occupy the whole block right up to the (narrow) sidewalks. Being greedy, Pemberton took full advantage of this to get the OK to go too tall IF they created more open space. Then they decided that tiny units were best and they were probably right because the whole development sold out very fast - originally they had thought it would need to be phased over several years. There is lots of blame to go around, the Province for allowing OMB and other land use 'special permissions' to live for ever and the developer for being greedy. Then there is the problem that though the City and neighbours tried to get improvements at the OMB, they tend to favour developers.
 
...was this ever designed for retail? Or is retail simply shy of setting up any shop here?
That is an awkward area to set up retail. It is still being developed in all direction except the West. I think once all of the construction is done to connect Old Town to Distillery, the Front St facing part will definitely see some action. Also, this is not a good time to start a business at the moment.

The south side to Esplanade will need some help tho. Maybe once David Crombie Park revitalization is completed, things will be much different.
 

Back
Top