Hamilton Steelport | ?m | ?s | Slate | Gensler

It's Gensler, for the thread title (@interchange42 / @AlvinofDiaspar / @Art Tsai).

But beyond that, I'm sorry, you want to try and develop Hamilton into a Great Lakes, intermodal, container facility?? Are you *high*? Also, "on-site rail" (something that's absolutely required for a container port) is a bit of an ambitious way to describe the existing mess of CPKC spurs and stubs that connect Stelco to the Grimsby Sub. That sub, you'll remember, is also projected to take a huge increase in GO traffic with once the Confederation and Grimsby eastward expansions come online.

Best o' luck, folks...
Just a note re: flagging admins for threads (we should put something in a sticky at the top of the forum where it will be ignored) that for thread title/database updates in the 905, please @Paclo. For thread title/database updates in civilized regions, you can still @me.

42
 
...I mean, is this something that is needed? And will it be enough create a sustainable economy here?

Someone above indicated the one in Baltimore is not doing so well or something...so I'd hate to see ghost warehouses replacing ghost steel mills. And Hamilton would then be no better off.

I can’t help but be an optimist on this one. It is an ambitious plan, but it is hard to deny that it is unachievable anywhere else in the GTHA. In the long-term (20-50 years), it makes even more sense. With similar waterfront land being scarce (if not nonexistent), doing anything less than maximizing the utility of the site would be foolhardy. Not to mention Hamilton already has a large shipping industry, so it is a logical place for intermodal expansion.

I believe this site’s value and the proposals seriousness is reflected in the price Slate paid for it; many folks, including the city itself hardly saw it as valuable as the private sector clearly does. Maybe if a smaller developer got a massive bargain on the land a decade ago and came with the same proposal I’d feel differently, but Slate means business.

The slow confluence of regional needs with Hamilton’s need for economic resurgence is starting to pay off. The question is not simply if Hamilton needs this- of course it does. It’s if the region needs it. And with rapid growth not slowing anytime soon in the GTHA, someone was going to make use of this land. In any case, this is the mechanism by which Hamilton will succeed in the 21st century; meeting burgeoning regional needs with legacy industrial capability.
 
I'm certainly optimistic, but there are a number of lingering questions not answered in the presser on the previous page. Most importantly: are Slate working with HPA to connect into the CPKC (it still sounds dumb) and CN mainlines close to here. Long Beach is on a different scale, but part of the thing that made that port so successful in the container trade was the construction of the Alameda Corridor linking it to the BNSF and UP lines heading out across America. That project was 32km so this wouldn't need to be nearly as comprehensive, but if Slate wants to be taken seriously in its apparent goal of growing the Great Lakes intermodal trade, it's an intrinsic part.
 
I just want to say that my initial reaction to this is wow! Slate now has a a gigantic chunk of central waterfront land in a growing city with, overall, great transport connections in one of the wealthiest regions in the world! Whatever the short term logistic problems with certain industries the long term prospects are stellar. The redevelopment potential makes HafenCity, Portlands and Nordhavn look small in comparison.
 
I'm certainly optimistic, but there are a number of lingering questions not answered in the presser on the previous page. Most importantly: are Slate working with HPA to connect into the CPKC (it still sounds dumb) and CN mainlines close to here. Long Beach is on a different scale, but part of the thing that made that port so successful in the container trade was the construction of the Alameda Corridor linking it to the BNSF and UP lines heading out across America. That project was 32km so this wouldn't need to be nearly as comprehensive, but if Slate wants to be taken seriously in its apparent goal of growing the Great Lakes intermodal trade, it's an intrinsic part.
It's no guarantee, but have little doubt that they will coordinate to ensure a rail connection is guaranteed. I can't recall where I read it, but I do remember Slate boasting specifically about the strong rail and road access of the site. Not to mention Stelco was obviously using rail here for a long time. There are a bunch of spurs, sidings, and service tracks all around the site today, and while they would mostly have to go in the interim, it would likely be harder to skirt around retaining/improving that rail connection than to not have one, especially given the site context. I would imagine CPKC and CN would actually be interested in ensuring they get to service the site, too, if there is to be an intermodal facility of the kind described.

1684367902190.png

(I think you realize there is rail here, but I'm including a picture because it shows how much exists to serve other existing customers and the proximity of those tracks- Slate can't afford to neglect the rail component in this case).

I also am considering the scope of information that has been released. In some ways, suggesting a container port is a goal which inherintly necessitates a rail connection, but outright stating it (and its nature) would be jumping the gun and possibly compromise some perceived competitive advantage, especially if these things aren't totally final. In short, if they are going to make a press release announcing anything, it logically would only be some visuals and the generalized site objectives (a port, industrial space, etc), not necessarily the nuts and bolts underneath.

Slate has also been fairly adamant about working with the city, local entities, etc, so I don't see things moving forward without adequate accommodations planned with HOPA/HPA (I've assumed these were the same thing, lol).

I do think this project, alongside the electrification of Dofasco, presents a good opportunity to rationalize the rail network in the area, perhaps even involving Metrolinx if it concerns the CN Grimsby sub and CPKC Hamilton sub. It depends how far one wants to take this idea, but depending on the volumes here it may be worth entertaining a serious overhaul of freight/rail movement in the area. I would like to see something to this effect, if not just to improve how/how many trains enter Hamilton. More CPKC/CN trains certainly would throw a wrench into GO, and with goals to ramp up service in the long term alongside potentially growing freight volumes, it might be worth hashing things out sooner rather than later to extract public benefit that way.


My fantasy pie-in-the-sky idea is to reinstate the CN Beach sub, because alongside creating a wholly seperate access point for the freights I think GO would make great use of it as well, but that is for another time.
 
What's the point in this waterfront park? This is a 45+ minute walk from some of the nearest existing neighbourhoods. Why not put the park on the west side and have the port on the north? Sherman and Birch could have been extended north as parallel one way avenues, perfect for a transit loop. It would also allow for the possibility of a connected waterfront from Bayfront Park, through Pier 8, down Burlington St. and ending at Steelport. I don't think there is anywhere else in Lake Ontario with 1.5km of uninterrupted sunset facing waterfront. Such a missed opportunity for beautiful evening views. You can even see on that map the existing rail infrastructure is mostly in the northeast part of this site, so how would it not make more sense to locate a port on the north? Boats would be travelling a shorter distance too. This whole thing seems backwards.
 
It's no guarantee, but have little doubt that they will coordinate to ensure a rail connection is guaranteed. I can't recall where I read it, but I do remember Slate boasting specifically about the strong rail and road access of the site. Not to mention Stelco was obviously using rail here for a long time. There are a bunch of spurs, sidings, and service tracks all around the site today, and while they would mostly have to go in the interim, it would likely be harder to skirt around retaining/improving that rail connection than to not have one, especially given the site context. I would imagine CPKC and CN would actually be interested in ensuring they get to service the site, too, if there is to be an intermodal facility of the kind described.

View attachment 478074
(I think you realize there is rail here, but I'm including a picture because it shows how much exists to serve other existing customers and the proximity of those tracks- Slate can't afford to neglect the rail component in this case).

I also am considering the scope of information that has been released. In some ways, suggesting a container port is a goal which inherintly necessitates a rail connection, but outright stating it (and its nature) would be jumping the gun and possibly compromise some perceived competitive advantage, especially if these things aren't totally final. In short, if they are going to make a press release announcing anything, it logically would only be some visuals and the generalized site objectives (a port, industrial space, etc), not necessarily the nuts and bolts underneath.

Slate has also been fairly adamant about working with the city, local entities, etc, so I don't see things moving forward without adequate accommodations planned with HOPA/HPA (I've assumed these were the same thing, lol).

I do think this project, alongside the electrification of Dofasco, presents a good opportunity to rationalize the rail network in the area, perhaps even involving Metrolinx if it concerns the CN Grimsby sub and CPKC Hamilton sub. It depends how far one wants to take this idea, but depending on the volumes here it may be worth entertaining a serious overhaul of freight/rail movement in the area. I would like to see something to this effect, if not just to improve how/how many trains enter Hamilton. More CPKC/CN trains certainly would throw a wrench into GO, and with goals to ramp up service in the long term alongside potentially growing freight volumes, it might be worth hashing things out sooner rather than later to extract public benefit that way.


My fantasy pie-in-the-sky idea is to reinstate the CN Beach sub, because alongside creating a wholly seperate access point for the freights I think GO would make great use of it as well, but that is for another time.
Yep, there's further discussion of this with myself and @innsertnamehere on the previous page.
What's the point in this waterfront park? This is a 45+ minute walk from some of the nearest existing neighbourhoods. Why not put the park on the west side and have the port on the north? Sherman and Birch could have been extended north as parallel one way avenues, perfect for a transit loop. It would also allow for the possibility of a connected waterfront from Bayfront Park, through Pier 8, down Burlington St. and ending at Steelport. I don't think there is anywhere else in Lake Ontario with 1.5km of uninterrupted sunset facing waterfront. Such a missed opportunity for beautiful evening views. You can even see on that map the existing rail infrastructure is mostly in the northeast part of this site, so how would it not make more sense to locate a port on the north? Boats would be travelling a shorter distance too. This whole thing seems backwards.
Randle Reef is also there. If you're looking for brisk freighter trade, a Federal "Area of Concern" isn't something I'd want in close proximity...
 
The first application is in here:

File NumberPSR-23-027
Application TypePreliminary Site Plan Review
Address386 Wilcox Street
File Year2023
DescriptionTo construct 3 industrial buildings with a total area of 130,074.01m2. The proposal includes 236 truck loading doors, 232 trailer parking spaces, 1,000 parking spaces and 7 barrier free spaces.
 
Yep, there's further discussion of this with myself and @innsertnamehere on the previous page.
My bad didn't see that comment. I wasn't aware of the different owners of the mess of tracks, so your comments regarding HPA/HOPA make more sense now, too.

What's the point in this waterfront park? This is a 45+ minute walk from some of the nearest existing neighbourhoods. Why not put the park on the west side and have the port on the north? Sherman and Birch could have been extended north as parallel one way avenues, perfect for a transit loop. It would also allow for the possibility of a connected waterfront from Bayfront Park, through Pier 8, down Burlington St. and ending at Steelport. I don't think there is anywhere else in Lake Ontario with 1.5km of uninterrupted sunset facing waterfront. Such a missed opportunity for beautiful evening views. You can even see on that map the existing rail infrastructure is mostly in the northeast part of this site, so how would it not make more sense to locate a port on the north? Boats would be travelling a shorter distance too. This whole thing seems backwards.
While I agree it isn't a super great spot, I think it's a miracle we are getting any kind of public space here at all. This is new, publically-accessible waterfront land in a city where the vast majority of the waterfront has been delegated to heavy industry for over a century. While we could perhaps argue the space should be on the east/west side of the parcel, it would then either be next to Dofasco in the east (yuck) or near existing ports & Randle reef in the west. All that, and it'd still be just as inaccessible.

Let's not forget this is, for all intents & purposes, perhaps the most toxic site in all of urban Canada. There were earlier visions from Stelco (pre-Slate) that loosely envisioned something like an office park. That might have been 'greener' but it was pretty unserious. The only way a truly 'adequate' and accessible public realm could ever be created here would be if there was a full site cleanup and redevelopment exceeding the scope of the portlands (which is now unnecessary). In another world maybe such redevelopment could have happened, but the current plan will have much greater economic benefits with a lower price tag than any people-oriented mixed-use redevelopment ever could.

Again, I am just glad that *some* public space has been allocated, because the alternatives are the current status quo or a fantastical vision that would necessitate the loss of prime industrial land.
 
First, a thread neutral comment; LOL, UT; I take one morning off and I come back to find more than 50 threads updated..........

***

Now back on point, on the subject of rail, I don't know if this deal is still in effect, but CN/CP had a coproduction deal on reaching Buffalo, NY back in 2002 that was tied to sell off of CP's track to the Casino and cut off a connection to rail bridge there.

In December 2001, CN and CP sold a portion
of track through Niagara Falls, Ontario that generated cash for
both railroads. As part of this accord, CP will use CN track to

reach Buffalo, NY

From: CN Investor fact book 2002
 
I’ll admit, I didn’t know enough about Randle Reef before my last comment. I’ve known about the remediation project and the toxic sediment dredging but I didn’t know there were plans to cap off the ECF and turn it into a container port. However, the new renders do not include the ECF port, just the google earth outline of half of it cut off by the new port. Is this still a thing?

30CCAEEA-655D-4EF8-A5A2-9E738118D29B.png

From:
 
...I mean, is this something that is needed? And will it be enough create a sustainable economy here?

Someone above indicated the one in Baltimore is not doing so well or something...so I'd hate to see ghost warehouses replacing ghost steel mills. And Hamilton would then be no better off.
Nothing wrong with deep water harbours with steel mills adjacent to them. Busy steel mills are healthy economies, even better if they are here and not in Liaoning Province in China ( as an example). I’m not sure how a container business could prosper in the Great Lakes with the railways as competition? Price? (I am assuming transshipment in Montreal). But if there is a market, then Hamilton would be a good port.
 

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