Toronto Rail Deck Development | 239.43m | 72s | LIUNA | Sweeny &Co

[Automation Gallery]

Wouldn't ORCA have to operate from City owned lands to actually construct anything, should that even be viable? Why would they want to start a PR campaign against their needed future partner?

Yeah, you're right, bit of bad blood from both sides with Cressy also going around saying that ORCA wants to build something that they have no rights....hopefully we will know soon "who has the rights', lol

 

[UrbanAffair]

Because they have no intent of building this. This is an exercise to maximize expropriation value from the city.

Interesting perspective, and I think you're probably right. Only thing I would add is expropriation would be based on 'market value in exchange' normally, so not sure how a PR attack on the city would make much difference in the end result. Still though, that is an interesting point. If expropriation has to occur, the issue of market value will likely go through the ARB (or a related tribunal as I am not sure if ARB deals with expropriations.) This would be a contentious hearing, and I don't think ORCA is doing themselves favours, if this is the direction this thing is headed.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Because they have no intent of building this. This is an exercise to maximize expropriation value from the city.

Expropriation value is determined by fair market value as set out in the Expropriations Act. It's based on:
(a) the market value of the land; (b) damages attributable to disturbance; (c) damages for injurious affection; and (d) any special difficulties in relocation.
TV commercials and public opinion aren't on the list.

If you assume they're doing it to get expropriated, that means you're assuming they legitimately own the rights, in which case why begrudge them their proposal for the lands they own? If that's the case, they bought air rights long before the city had a park plan so they went to all the work and filed a planning application to get the lands they acquired (presumably through a psychic) expropriated?

Not following the logic.

And once the local councillor has said your proposal will happen over his dead body, it's debatable whether ORCA has "started" a PR campaign against their "future partner." Indeed, if it's true they own the air rights, the question is at least as equally viable to ask of the City; probably moreso because then they know they have little leg to stand on and are deciding to blackball a landowner and its development proposal exclusive of their rights under the Planning Act.

Only they know who is negotiating or refusing to negotiate behind closed doors.
But I think it's naive to assume one of the party's is definitely acting in good faith and the other is posturing to gain financial and/or political advantage.

(And one other thing to consider is how expropriation plays out politically. An arbitrator sides with the city and orders them to pay tens of millions - maybe hundreds of millions - to ORCA, who both sides agree owned the air rights all along. You can try to spin that as a win for taxapayers but more than a few people will ask why they didn't neogitate a deal, if that was the case.)

 

[Big Daddy]

Because they have no intent of building this. This is an exercise to maximize expropriation value from the city.

I agree, For the sake of the city going forward, this has to be a park. The Province and maybe even the Feds will eventually kick in. These guys are simply trying to maximize the value of their ultimate buy-out.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I agree, For the sake of the city going forward, this has to be a park. The Province and maybe even the Feds will eventually kick in. These guys are simply trying to maximize the value of their ultimate buy-out.

Again, to sum up:
a) Legally nonsensical.
b) Assumes ORCA are and have been the legit landowners all along and they scooped up the air rights knowing the city would want to build a park there before anyone at the city knew it. You can't maximize the value of land (or air, in this case) to which you don't hold legal title.

 

[Big Daddy]

Again, to sum up:
a) Legally nonsensical.
b) Assumes ORCA are and have been the legit landowners all along and they scooped up the air rights knowing the city would want to build a park there before anyone at the city knew it. You can't maximize the value of land (or air, in this case) to which you don't hold legal title.

Legally nonsensical? Howso?. Assuming for the moment ORCA owns some or most of the air rights to the area over the tracks - their proposal makes sense. However, they would have to work closely with the city to get it built. The city wants those air rights and will have to acquire them from whomever owns them- expropriation? - which they could do. The developer here can either choose to fight a very costly and potentially unsuccessful fight to develop - or sell their portion for as much as they can get. They're simply trying to maximize their potential buy-out.

I suspect the city's move came earlier than ORCA may have expected as they may have still been in the process of quietly trying to acquire the balance of the necessary rights. At any rate, if, by some fluke, they are successful in retaining all the necessary rights, they must then begin the difficult process of trying to develop them. Their best and likely most beneficial course is likely to sell the rights to the city for as much as they can get. That's what this is all about.

 

[interchange42]

@Big Daddy, @TJ O'Pootertoot is saying that the commercials that ORCA is running would have zero effect on the expropriation price of the air rights, as any change in public opinion generated by the commercials wouldn't have any material effect on the value of those rights: public opinion is not taken into account when determining the value.

Meanwhile, the City of Toronto owns nearly all of the land surrounding the site, including strips of park along the north and south sides of the property. The air rights to those strips are not in the hands of ORCA group. Their ability to develop the site is dependent upon being able to get to it, and it's not clear right now how that might work.

I cannot but expect that we have a protracted legal battle ahead on this.

42

 

[UrbanAffair]

Also, to clarify TJ's point, it is actually market value in exchange, based on the current in-use value I think, rather than the highest and best use. This is vitally important as the HABU could obtain a much higher market value for the property, than the current use value. (This is all under the assumption still that ORCA owns something here, air rights, land rights, or something at least.)

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Thanks for elucidating my point about the legalities, @interchange42

I have no idea if anyone in this province has ever tried to expropriate air rights and given the in-use value, yes, that would make for an interesting legal case indeed. Sure, ORCA could be positioning so the city will have to buy them out, but that acknowledges the city knew, even as they announced this glorious legacy for the city, that they didn't own the real estate. A complete OPA planning application like the one ORCA submitted does not appear overnight so the city surely knew they were at least trying to do the development. The mere fact that the city is even talking about expropriation already suggests to me they have reason to believe ORCA has a deal with the railways. And to expropriate adds to the already-pricey project whereas a development deal would mitigate those costs.

Logic would dictate that ORCA has to negotiate with the city which owns small ,but significantly located pieces of land and the city has to negotiate with ORCA which (presumably, apparently) owns the bulk of the proposed parklands. Since we live in a democracy, and all that, I'd hope they negotiate and come out of it with a good deal for everyone but if private developers own the land, the city is going to have to own up to it and confront it at some point. I doubt it will be long before this moves to the next phase, whether that's the OMB or open shouting matches, but the questions aren't going to remain questions forever.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Thanks for elucidating my point about the legalities, @interchange42

I have no idea if anyone in this province has ever tried to expropriate air rights and given the in-use value, yes, that would make for an interesting legal case indeed. Sure, ORCA could be positioning so the city will have to buy them out, but that acknowledges the city knew, even as they announced this glorious legacy for the city, that they didn't own the real estate. A complete OPA planning application like the one ORCA submitted does not appear overnight so the city surely knew they were at least trying to do the development. The mere fact that the city is even talking about expropriation already suggests to me they have reason to believe ORCA has a deal with the railways. And to expropriate adds to the already-pricey project whereas a development deal would mitigate those costs.

Logic would dictate that ORCA has to negotiate with the city which owns small ,but significantly located pieces of land and the city has to negotiate with ORCA which (presumably, apparently) owns the bulk of the proposed parklands. Since we live in a democracy, and all that, I'd hope they negotiate and come out of it with a good deal for everyone but if private developers own the land, the city is going to have to own up to it and confront it at some point. I doubt it will be long before this moves to the next phase, whether that's the OMB or open shouting matches, but the questions aren't going to remain questions forever.

Given the rush job that the ORCA OPA is, it seems quite clear to me that it was thrown together in a month or two. I've gone over this already, but a some of the materials are literally hand sketched.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Given the rush job that the ORCA OPA is, it seems quite clear to me that it was thrown together in a month or two. I've gone over this already, but a some of the materials are literally hand sketched.

Like the city's one rendering of Rail Deck Park they keep carting around? That's a completely thought-out plan?

As I said above, I think it's naive to think one party is acting in good faith and the other trying to pull a fast one. Whether the city pulled the trigger because they knew the OPA was in the works or whether ORCA rushed their OPA so they wouldn't get steamrolled by a city plan for land they (apparently! theoretically!) own, they're playing a game of chicken and putting everyone else in the middle of it.

 

[ChesterCopperpot]

Given the rush job that the ORCA OPA is, it seems quite clear to me that it was thrown together in a month or two. I've gone over this already, but a some of the materials are literally hand sketched.

Not necessarily - Sweeny &Co. have been working with the developer on this for over 2 years

 

[innsertnamehere]

quite probably - but I suspect not much was done until the city announced its plans. I imagine a call was quickly placed from ORCA to &Co putting it on rush.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

quite probably - but I suspect not much was done until the city announced its plans. I imagine a call was quickly placed from ORCA to &Co putting it on rush.

I see what you're saying about sketches etc. in the report.
But I look at the renderings etc. on ORCA's website and I look at the "details" on the Rail Deck Park page and I'm going to suggest to you that it looks like one party was more prepared than the other. At best, it's a push. I look at the long list of consultants who worked on the project and find it hard to believe they did all that work in a month or two or that they were engaged as part of a big expropriation game. But maybe. (Per what Chester said above, you think it's more likely they all came on board earlier this year or that many were working on it for several years without you knowing?)

But if ORCA does own the air rights, good on them for getting an OPA in quickly so it was processed in tandem with what the city had thrown in the mix without telling them. If they don't own them, it'll come out soon enough this was all a scam and then we can concentrate on where the city thinks it's getting $2 billion for a 20-acre park.

 

[Automation Gallery]

I'm actually glad ORCA announced and submitted plans, which is a lot more than a vision from a mayor and councillor that have been throwing around a bunch of propaganda to get brownie points, ...

By the way Global TV will have something on this project at the 6pm news today