Toronto Ontario Line: Pape Station | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | HDR

[toraerach]

Absolutely praying for a 20-30 storey TOC build here to set a new precedent for the Danforth.

“If you build it, they will come.”

I'm all for more density on the Danforth, but this stretch is one of the most vibrant urban experiences in the East End, especially when CaféTO narrows the roadway. I'd hate to see that jettisoned for 20-30-storey towers when we could accommodate the same density more sensitively with missing middle redevelopment of the surrounding neighbourhoods. I live in a neighbourhood of 20-30-storey towers and generally deplore NIMBYism, but a one-size-fits-all approach to densification just doesn't make sense here.

In any case, I suppose Holy Name is destined to lose that lovely way it looms over the surrounding streetscape. A necessary change, but still a shame IMO.

 

[JasonParis]

Funny you say that, as I thought of Montreal immediately after seeing that rendering.

 

[UrbanOzz]

In Montreal, I've seen street vendors selling small items like handmade jewellery using plaza space in front of Metro stations. That sort of thing might work here or even a farmer's market.

i'd like to see that but i feel like this city makes it impossible. Probably need a permit, a steep fee for the permit and insane rules and whatever sort of small vendor selling jewelry won't be able to make a profit while the city brings it all in under the guise of their new project "MerchantTO"

 

[torontologist]

I'm all for more density on the Danforth, but this stretch is one of the most vibrant urban experiences in the East End, especially when CaféTO narrows the roadway. I'd hate to see that jettisoned for 20-30-storey towers when we could accommodate the same density more sensitively with missing middle redevelopment of the surrounding neighbourhoods. I live in a neighbourhood of 20-30-storey towers and generally deplore NIMBYism, but a one-size-fits-all approach to densification just doesn't make sense here.

In any case, I suppose Holy Name is destined to lose that lovely way it looms over the surrounding streetscape. A necessary change, but still a shame IMO.

Ideally the city would adopt design guidelines that enforce small storefronts on Danforth, as well as zoning designations allowing for mid rise throughout the East End. Since that seems unlikely, I’m advocating for an MZO and the OLT to set a precedent. Towers are better than nothing; we’re in the midst of a housing crisis and there is near-suburban density surrounding an existing subway here.

 

[christiesplits]

I'm all for more density on the Danforth, but this stretch is one of the most vibrant urban experiences in the East End, especially when CaféTO narrows the roadway. I'd hate to see that jettisoned for 20-30-storey towers when we could accommodate the same density more sensitively with missing middle redevelopment of the surrounding neighbourhoods. I live in a neighbourhood of 20-30-storey towers and generally deplore NIMBYism, but a one-size-fits-all approach to densification just doesn't make sense here.

In any case, I suppose Holy Name is destined to lose that lovely way it looms over the surrounding streetscape. A necessary change, but still a shame IMO.

Agree with you. Especially after the new street patios and bike lanes, it has made me appreciate the Danforth even more. I think mid-rises in the 7-12 story range are suitable for the strip.

 

[officedweller]

I see the plaza as a break from the monotony of the streetwall.

 

[dodgeram]

I just find the GIANT setback offensive. The basic functionality of the street is wonderful and lively. Having a random inset will disrupt the streetwall in negative ways. If the buildings beside it were designed with a plaza in mind it would maybe work, but this isn't great compared to the other stations. They'd be better off having the "setback" take place inside the eventual station if they think they need the room.

Sidewalks are too narrow, people complain. Now the sidewalk is huge and you call it offensive. There really is no winning on this forum I guess.

 

[Ward8]

Sidewalks are too narrow, people complain. Now the sidewalk is huge and you call it offensive. There really is no winning on this forum I guess.

I mean, I said that this was an exception compared to the other stations. It's just demolishing a lot of vibrant streetscape for what is probably an over engineered station entrance. I'm not an expert, but there are a lot of busy Toronto stations that are simply a door in a building or a portal in the sidewalk. And Pape already has a major station entrance to the north of this site. This rendering looks great, it just breaks some of the best practices of urban streetscape.

 

[jaed]

good lord thats ugly. is it really necessary to demolish some of the most pleasant looking buildings on the streetscape and replace it with something so shamelessly incongruous?

 

[JasonParis]

This will be a large interchange station. Probably one of the busiest on the network when OL comes online. I think Metrolinx also doesn't want to be fixing capacity mistakes a la Yonge-Bloor and St. George a generation from now.

 

[interchange42]

I mean, I said that this was an exception compared to the other stations. It's just demolishing a lot of vibrant streetscape for what is probably an over engineered station entrance. I'm not an expert, but there are a lot of busy Toronto stations that are simply a door in a building or a portal in the sidewalk. And Pape already has a major station entrance to the north of this site. This rendering looks great, it just breaks some of the best practices of urban streetscape.

One of the deals with underground stations since the time that the BD line was built through here is that codes have changed, and air handling for one has to much much more robust now, I believe mostly in case of a fire, so that smoke can be cleared out quickly to keep people down there alive. Any stations that go through expansions, like this one, now have to be retrofitted to the new standards, and that's why we can just do a door in a wall or a portal in the sidewalk anymore... well, those could still happen, but not without the space somewhere nearby for the air handling equipment.

In the meantime, this station IS SUBJECT to a Transit Oriented Community development, so what we are seeing at the moment in this rendering is extremely preliminary, and will likely have a multi-storey building above it that changes, possibly, everything,

The rendering again (once per page is fine for quick reference):

42

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

One of the deals with underground stations since the time that the BD line was built through here is that codes have changed, and air handling for one has to much much more robust now, I believe mostly in case of a fire, so that smoke can be cleared out quickly to keep people down there alive. Any stations that go through expansions, like this one, now have to be retrofitted to the new standards, and that's why we can just do a door in a wall or a portal in the sidewalk anymore... well, those could still happen, but not without the space somewhere nearby for the air handling equipment.

In the meantime, this station IS SUBJECT to a Transit Oriented Community development, so what we are seeing at the moment in this rendering is extremely preliminary, and will likely have a multi-storey building above it that changes, possibly, everything,

The rendering again (once per page is fine for quick reference):

42

If the general design is real, the size of those columns looks like a giveway that something substantial will be above it. Anyhow, I am not convinced this design is "done right" at face value - considering the sheer amount of dead space on either side of the entrance that could have been built out to the lot and maintained the streetwall. The plaza as it stands now is excessive (especially considering other stations like King-Bathurst and Queen-Spadina..

AoD

 

[LUVIT!]

I like the setback for reasons already mentioned plus that section of sidewalk is quite narrow now. The wider setback will allow people to mill about waiting for a cab or pick up or whatever. Hopefully some seating will be placed in this area along some greenery I hope.

 

[whatever]

If ever there was a spot that just needs a couple buskers, some street meat, and maybe some nice benches...

If they were to program it correctly (good luck, in Toronto) that little open space could be a really nice draw.

 

[Ward8]

One of the deals with underground stations since the time that the BD line was built through here is that codes have changed, and air handling for one has to much much more robust now, I believe mostly in case of a fire, so that smoke can be cleared out quickly to keep people down there alive. Any stations that go through expansions, like this one, now have to be retrofitted to the new standards, and that's why we can just do a door in a wall or a portal in the sidewalk anymore... well, those could still happen, but not without the space somewhere nearby for the air handling equipment.

I wondered if there were technical reasons behind some of the decisions. Thanks for adding that information. It would be interesting to see how this one develops.

I like the setback for reasons already mentioned plus that section of sidewalk is quite narrow now. The wider setback will allow people to mill about waiting for a cab or pick up or whatever. Hopefully some seating will be placed in this area along some greenery I hope.

f ever there was a spot that just needs a couple buskers, some street meat, and maybe some nice benches...

If they were to program it correctly (good luck, in Toronto) that little open space could be a really nice draw.

As a subway station it's a major trip generator, so anything is possible, but I haven't seen much success with similar setbacks (ie. a setback in the middle of an established street wall.) E condos has a bit of a similar plaza that isn't bad, but it's on a corner lot. There are more examples where new buildings have setbacks that are a few meters larger than the street wall and those are a pet peeve of mine.

Given the technical elements listed by 42, the setback is probably a win if the walls of the station are going to be loaded with venting and other necessary infrastructure. If it were possible, maximizing the retail frontage on the facade would help. One would also hope that the buildings on each side eventually renovate to present something to the "plaza."