Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

I really want to apologize if it has already been posted, but does anyone have a link to a timeline of when each station is projected to start work? Thank you. I am particularly interested in when construction of the new Pape Station is projected to commence.

To add to what @generalcanada has said above. Many design details for the various stations are TBD. A great deal of basic (this is where the box goes) etc is done; but there's a lot more being looked at still.

Vertical circulation elements are still under discussion for some stations; as are washrooms, among a host of other things.

Some of the details are small and would be unlikely to impact schedule much, but some are more material.
 
pape station hasnt even got its rfp out yet dont expect the station to start construction until closer to 2026 AKA "Ontario Line – Pape Tunnel and Underground Stations" the similar "Ontario Line – Elevated Guideway and Stations" which is the whole area north of the dvp should start construction a little earlier than the tunnels
other than that there really isnt much public timelines except for "7 years of streetcar detours till 2030" and "metrolinx hands site access off to the contractor in may of this year"

Thank you. I thought I had read 2024, but 2026 makes sense.

The last time they resurfaced Pape Ave (a few years ago) it was an absolute mess and took way longer than it should have. I can only imagine what's going to happen when they start the Ontario. But the sooner they start, the better.
 
To add to what @generalcanada has said above. Many design details for the various stations are TBD. A great deal of basic (this is where the box goes) etc is done; but there's a lot more being looked at still.

Vertical circulation elements are still under discussion for some stations; as are washrooms, among a host of other things.

Some of the details are small and would be unlikely to impact schedule much, but some are more material.
It would be nice to get washrooms at each station.
 
It would be nice to get washrooms at each station.

To my understanding, washrooms are in the design for Osgoode and Pape.

Though policy would normally require them at Queen (interchange station); space constraints mean they are not in the current design there.

Subsequently, the TTC apparently changed policy to include pubic/publically accessible washrooms in all new stations; that is now being considered subject to budget and design constraints.
 
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Longer term is a point in favour of third rail. Think about it. When planning future extensions/branches in an urban realm we want a line that can be nimble - i.e allow for planning of grade changes and tight turns with ease. Flyunders and flyovers, short tunnels, deviations from road ROW to rail ROW to greenspace etc... pantos will make that more difficult. Why? Because the train's profile is that much bigger. Infrastructure has to be more expansive to allow this. This is one reason I've been an advocate of ~2.75m wide train for RL rolling stock, with a commensurate longer train to compensate for the narrowness. Now with pantos we're effectively getting bigger trains.
In laying out your arguments for third rail, you have inadvertently outlined the arguments in support of overhead catenary systems. They are more reliable, more efficient (due to lower resistance that reduces power loss), safer (allows for at-grade crossings), easier to maintain, and better at power delivery. The minor increase in the vertical profile of the train does not substantially impact cost nor difficulty of construction.
 
Also, I'm not certain this is the case at all. Do you really think that the general public is okay with the forfeiting of public space that comes with elevated rail, but overhead wires (that they would only see when viewing the line from a distance, anyway) would be too far? This doesn't strike me as being remotely credible.
I didn't write that. I said they'd be opposed to both.

In laying out your arguments for third rail, you have inadvertently outlined the arguments in support of overhead catenary systems. They are more reliable, more efficient (due to lower resistance that reduces power loss), safer (allows for at-grade crossings), easier to maintain, and better at power delivery. The minor increase in the vertical profile of the train does not substantially impact cost nor difficulty of construction.
I've argued overhead is harder to maintain and more vulnerable. They do allow significantly higher speeds, but that's at speeds well above what a subway would do so it's a moot point. At-grade crossings is moot as well since we're talking about a grade-separated line.

Now I never said catenary has a 'substantial' impact on cost or construction difficulty. Rather that certain things start adding up. And on the whole I believe it to be more limiting, costlier, and visually obtrusive than third rail.
 
I didn't write that. I said they'd be opposed to both.


I've argued overhead is harder to maintain and more vulnerable. They do allow significantly higher speeds, but that's at speeds well above what a subway would do so it's a moot point. At-grade crossings is moot as well since we're talking about a grade-separated line.

Now I never said catenary has a 'substantial' impact on cost or construction difficulty. Rather that certain things start adding up. And on the whole I believe it to be more limiting, costlier, and visually obtrusive than third rail.
I suppose the aesthetic argument is subjective.

However, given the reduced infrastructure requirements (does not require TPSS to be located as close together due to reduced power loss) in OCS systems and the improved safety aspect of it. There is not really a technical benefit to third rail, except where the system exists historically.
 
To my understanding, washrooms are in the design for Osgoode and Pape.

Though policy would normally require them at Queen (interchange station); space constraints mean they are not in the current design there.

Subsequently, the TTC apparently changed policy to include pubic/publically accessible washrooms in all new stations; that is now being considered subject to budget and design constraints.
How about a single user all-gender washroom under the staircase?
 
However, given the reduced infrastructure requirements (does not require TPSS to be located as close together due to reduced power loss) in OCS systems and the improved safety aspect of it. There is not really a technical benefit to third rail, except where the system exists historically.
That has nothing to do with overhead versus third rail, and everything to do with the line voltage (as well as the rated ultimate capacity/minimum headway of the line).

All else being equal, the spacing between TPSSes would be identical regardless of the method of getting the power to the train.

Dan
 
I wasn't sure where to put this... It's more a Metrolinx communications/funding issue; but in today's Ontario Line update email blast... An ad sorry... business spotlight for a restaurant.

Almost as annoying as the ads on the inside of the GO trains... I was already having issue with my email spam filters...

Here's a quick 'ad' annoyance summary:
  • Electronic billboards on go properties
  • Ads inside Go train windows
  • Durham college Oshawa go station
  • Business spotlights in informational emails
Are they really bringing in a lot of revenue from these? Relative to operational budget, I seems to me it wasn't a lot...
 
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Also, I'm not certain this is the case at all. Do you really think that the general public is okay with the forfeiting of public space that comes with elevated rail, but overhead wires (that they would only see when viewing the line from a distance, anyway) would be too far? This doesn't strike me as being remotely credible.
I really don't think the average person has any care about wires. The one thing I've never heard in a public meeting is concern about catenary visibility. It's always seems to be something raised by a handful of rail fans on a forum.

My concern is that third rail is going to be easier to maintain. We've already seen photos of the Ottawa LRT with wire down.
 
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I really don't think the average person has any care about wires. The one thing I've never heard in a public meeting is concern about catenary visibility. It's always seems to be something raised by a handful of rail fans on a forum.

My concern is that third rail is going to be easier to maintain. We've already seen photos of the Ottawa LRT with wire down.
AC or DC? Most likely the trains will be AC powered using catenary.

One of the biggest advantages of AC over DC is that it is relatively cheap to change the voltage of any current. It is also best suited for transporting electrical current over long distances when compared to DC, as energy losses are considerably reduced.

From link.

Traction choices: overhead ac vs third rail dc


With third rail dc and overhead ac traction offering numerous advantages and disadvantages, prospective rapid transit operators should carefully consider the type of traction system they adopt, argues Anil Yadav, general manager, electrical, at Rites, India, who is currently providing consultancy services to Bangalore Metro.

WIDE variety of electric traction systems are used on rapid transit systems around the world which have been built according to the type of railway, its location and the technology available at the time of installation.

Most metros are operated with dc power either at 750V with third rail or 1.5kV with third rail/overhead contact line. Operating metros on 25kV ac overhead is a relatively new phenomenon and there is a lot of debate about the value of this adaption due to the importance of traction power to a system's performance.

A conventional electrification system provides electrical power to the trains by means of the traction power supply, distribution, and traction power return systems. Third rail always uses dc power with a variety of voltages in use around the world including 600V on the Tokyo metro, 750V, which is the most common use, 825V in Moscow, 1.2kV in Berlin and 1.5kV in Guangzhou.

Overhead traction has also evolved from 1.5kV dc, 3kV dc, and 15kV ac in early applications to 25kV ac (or 2x25kV ac) which is now widely used and more often than not the traction system of choice for new mainline and high-speed railways. High-voltage ac electrification has also been applied on S-Bahn systems in Germany (15kV) and on part of the RER network in Paris where mainline commuter lines have been connected with new underground sections in the city centre.

The fundamental difference between ac and dc is that on a dc network each substation includes transformers and rectifiers which condition the power to the relatively low voltage required for direct use by vehicle propulsion equipment. In ac systems the power is supplied by the substations directly without rectification. This necessitates further transformation onboard the rolling stock so the voltage is suitable for use by vehicle propulsion equipment.

Both systems offer distinct advantages and disadvantages, but with Delhi Metro using a 25kV ac rigid catenary system both above and below ground, which is encouraging other new metro projects in India to follow suit, it seems appropriate to consider what they might lose or gain by copying this example.
 
Increasing capacity

With demand for rapid transit services on the rise, operators are constantly looking to increase capacity and improve the efficiency of their networks. The norm for most metro line peak services is 30 trains per hour, or two-minute headways, although there are some examples where this is exceeded. For example Paris Metro Line 14's headways are as low as 85 seconds.

In theory adopting a 25kV ac traction system could be one way of achieving greater capacity because it allows the operator to use longer trains more frequently. For mainline and high-speed railways 25kV ac is now the most proven and widely used system. It offers a number of advantages, including reducing the cost of power supply equipment, improving efficiency, and using energy from braking more effectively which are all potentially attractive features to metro operators. Power supply efficiency on a line equipped with 25kV ac overhead contact wire is also 98% although this may vary depending on rolling stock.

However, there are also several disadvantages of 25kV ac, particularly when applied in an urban metro environment. With the overhead contact line system more prone to failure, regular maintenance is necessary and requires a plan that is supported by a 24-hour maintenance team. The potential for electromagnetic interference and the impact of magnetic fields on properties and activities close to the line must also be considered, although special design features such as return conductors or booster transformers that minimise magnetic fields are now common.

Tunnel construction that is suitable for overhead catenary will also be significantly more expensive than for third rail because of the larger profile required. This is one of the major factors why metros have traditionally tended to favour third rail. In addition, because the onboard transformer imposes significant weight on the ac-powered rolling stock, metro operators have typically found that dc systems are better suited for urban applications where relatively short station spacing requires frequent and high acceleration.

On most third rail systems, the conductor rail is placed outside of the running rails and the electricity is transmitted to the train by means of a sliding shoe, which is held in contact with the rail. A third rail system offers a number of benefits, including:

• eradicating the impact of electromagnetic interference on electrical components
• reducing maintenance costs because power supply equipment is virtually maintenance-free with only regular inspections and cleaning required, and
• offering high efficiency - a 750V dc system offers a power supply transmission efficiency average of 92-94%.

As a solid composite rail running along the track, a third rail is more rugged than an overhead contact wire and has a longer life expectancy. The system similarly benefits from high reliability because it is fed on both sides by rectifiers from adjacent substations, and it can offer lower comparative initial costs than an ac system. Rolling stock used on these systems also tends to be cheaper because no transformers are installed onboard which also reduces the weight of the vehicles and increases capacity for passengers.

Inevitably there are a number of disadvantages with third rail, including unavoidable gaps in the power supply at points and level crossings. Speeds are also restricted to 160km/h due to the technical limitations of the system, while on lines electrified at 750V dc peak-time line capacity is limited to 60,000 passengers per hour per direction. Stray currents are also possible, although improvements in technology are managing and controlling this factor.

Some metros have found that adjusting voltages can mitigate some of the disadvantages of third rail traction, particularly its capacity limitations. As a result a number of new build projects, including Ahmadabad Metro, are considering electrifying at 1.5kV dc which is capable of carrying more than 60,000 passengers per hour per direction.

A study performed for Dubai Metro found that a 1.5kV dc third rail traction system can also cost up to 13% less than a 750V dc third rail system. One cost saving measure is the ability to locate fewer substations at greater intervals which reduces maintenance costs.

Typical substation spacing is roughly 1.5 - 2km for 750V dc systems, and 3 - 4km for 1.5kV dc systems although this distance is dependent on power demand, operating headways, system design, and land availability. Increasing the voltage can similarly result in a reduction in collector shoe maintenance costs, while stray currents, electromagnetic interference, and energy use are all reduced, and performance improves increasing peak-hour capacity.

While adjusting voltages and the type of traction system used can improve capacity on a metro system, it is the frequent station stops and terminal operations which are the major factors in determining line capacity and train headways. Even if the traction system is capable of handling the capacity required for longer trains, it is the length of the train itself which tends to increase headways to more than two minutes because of the time it takes to transfer from up track to down track at the end of the trip.

As a result reduced headways are only achievable on systems where shorter trains are used. Hence the benefit of providing greater per hour per direction capacity by using 25kV ac traction is lost in a practical application on a metro system. Introducing a communications-based signalling system could be one way of reducing headways for longer trains, although on underground lines ventilation and smoke control system regulations can restrict train length because they require a distance of 200-300m between trains to allow effective and safe air circulation.

It is within these parameters that one needs to look at the traction system applied and conclude what is the most suitable application.

Delhi Metro, which is using a 25kV ac overhead system and is recommending that other metros in India follow suit, has proposed shortening the length of trains that will be used on the third phase of its network to provide a headway of 1min 50s. While the traction system may be able to cater for more than 60,000 passengers per hour per direction under this plan, the system as a whole will not support higher capacity due to the shorter train lengths required to achieve lower headways.

As we have found, a 750V dc third rail system regularly caters for a six-car metro train operating at two-minute headways. Planners would therefore be wise to consider all of the options available with respect to the specific demands of their system when designing new metros, and not to dismiss what some might consider as old fashioned third rail systems. In some instances the efficiency savings that these systems offer could be of greater value than the promise of increased capacity provided by overhead traction.
 
Though policy would normally require them at Queen (interchange station); space constraints mean they are not in the current design there.
I'm surprised there'd be space constraints, given what they are building.

Still, at least at Queen, there are washroom options in directly attached buildings.
 
I'm surprised there'd be space constraints, given what they are building.

Still, at least at Queen, there are washroom options in directly attached buildings. *

Agreed though the * is needed 'during business hours'.

The Eaton Centre generally closes the washrooms 30M after the closing hours of the mall. So, no late-evening access.
 

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