Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

asher__jo said:
Would've been preferable if they had repeated the Yonge-Bloor and Bloor-Yonge pattern with intersecting lines.
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We have Sheppard-Yonge as well. Hopefully Metrolinx will see sense and either rename it to Queen/Yonge or City Hall.
 
Here is the response from the Ontario Line team regarding my continued questioning of the long transfer time at the Queen and Osgoode interchanges:

"Thank you for following up. We fully agree with prioritizing fast and efficient transfers between systems as a key benefit for passengers.

While we would love to construct the Ontario Line station closer to Line 1 to further enhance this benefit, 35 metres below grade is the shallowest we can construct it based on technical constraints. For example, we need to keep a minimum distance from the existing structures along the alignment. This consideration includes major utilities such as Enwave heating and cooling tunnels that would require a significant and time-consuming undertaking to relocate. Studies conducted on ground stability and vibration also played an important role in determining how shallow the station could be constructed.

As noted, though, the Project Company will undertake further detailed analysis and may determine an alternative solution. The approval of the Environmental Impact Assessment Report (EIAR) also does not preclude changes to project plans if needed. In the event of significant changes, addendums can be completed and added to previously approved environmental reports, and this is a common practice. This addendum process is intended to address the possibility that in implementing a transit project, certain modifications may have to be made that are inconsistent with the EIAR.

Thank you again for sharing this feedback, and please do not hesitate to reach out with any further questions."

Here's hoping Metrolinx sees reason and changes the designs for these stations to make transfers easier.
 
fanoftoronto said:
Here's hoping Metrolinx sees reason and changes the designs for these stations to make transfers easier.
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Sounds like they have seen reason and are dealing with some difficult technical constraints. Maybe the construction consortium can come up with a transfer involving less escalators, but the height distance between the platforms will likely be the same as has been proposed.
 
fanoftoronto said:
Here is the response from the Ontario Line team regarding my continued questioning of the long transfer time at the Queen and Osgoode interchanges:

"Thank you for following up. We fully agree with prioritizing fast and efficient transfers between systems as a key benefit for passengers.

While we would love to construct the Ontario Line station closer to Line 1 to further enhance this benefit, 35 metres below grade is the shallowest we can construct it based on technical constraints. For example, we need to keep a minimum distance from the existing structures along the alignment. This consideration includes major utilities such as Enwave heating and cooling tunnels that would require a significant and time-consuming undertaking to relocate. Studies conducted on ground stability and vibration also played an important role in determining how shallow the station could be constructed.

As noted, though, the Project Company will undertake further detailed analysis and may determine an alternative solution. The approval of the Environmental Impact Assessment Report (EIAR) also does not preclude changes to project plans if needed. In the event of significant changes, addendums can be completed and added to previously approved environmental reports, and this is a common practice. This addendum process is intended to address the possibility that in implementing a transit project, certain modifications may have to be made that are inconsistent with the EIAR.

Thank you again for sharing this feedback, and please do not hesitate to reach out with any further questions."

Here's hoping Metrolinx sees reason and changes the designs for these stations to make transfers easier.
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how deep is enwaves pipes? they cant be that deep are they?
 
tsm1072 said:
Sounds like they have seen reason and are dealing with some difficult technical constraints. Maybe the construction consortium can come up with a transfer involving less escalators, but the height distance between the platforms will likely be the same as has been proposed.
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Agreed, any expectation that the depth of the station platforms is going to change is pure fantasy, as not only does that impact the design of the station but the entire design of the tunnel, which means running into more and more technical constraints. The best we can hope for is an improved method of transfer between platforms. It's never going to be a Bloor-Yonge situation where you just go down a floor to the other platform, no matter how much people on here wish it would be. It's simply not possible given the surroundings of these stations. Sadly I doubt any consortium is going to spend the money on high-speed elevators either.
duffo said:
As far as I know Metrolinx policy is to keep the existing name of the interchange. Which is why "Yonge Station" on the Eglinton Line is, bizarrely, going to be just called Eglinton Station.
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And yet they broke this rule with Eglinton West station, which makes their refusal to rename Eglinton Station even stupider.
EastYorkTTCFan said:
Except for Eglington West which they renamed to Cerdevale for some reason known only to them and their wayfinding expert, Local council members and the random people they served who probably have never been on the subway or will ever go on it.
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To be fair, it's directly north of the north end of Cedarvale Park and the Cedarvale Ravine. It's not like they made up the name from nowhere. Also having a station called Eglinton West on a line where there are stations further West along Eglinton is very stupid. I mean, the only thing that could be stupider is having a station just called Eglinton, on the Eglinton Line, and surely no one would do something that dumb, right? 🙃
 
TossYourJacket said:
Agreed, any expectation that the depth of the station platforms is going to change is pure fantasy, as not only does that impact the design of the station but the entire design of the tunnel, which means running into more and more technical constraints. The best we can hope for is an improved method of transfer between platforms. It's never going to be a Bloor-Yonge situation where you just go down a floor to the other platform, no matter how much people on here wish it would be. It's simply not possible given the surroundings of these stations. Sadly I doubt any consortium is going to spend the money on high-speed elevators either.

And yet they broke this rule with Eglinton West station, which makes their refusal to rename Eglinton Station even stupider.

To be fair, it's directly north of the north end of Cedarvale Park and the Cedarvale Ravine. It's not like they made up the name from nowhere. Also having a station called Eglinton West on a line where there are stations further West along Eglinton is very stupid. I mean, the only thing that could be stupider is having a station just called Eglinton, on the Eglinton Line, and surely no one would do something that dumb, right? 🙃
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Personally I think they should have gone with my naming scheme for the Eglinton line
1653766207462.png
 
dkt said:
Personally I think they should have gone with my naming scheme for the Eglinton line
View attachment 403004
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Don't forget the extension into Etobicoke:

Eglinton Wester than West
Eglinton Westest 3: Revelations
Eglinton West X-Treme
Rise of the West of the Eglinton
Eglinton Hyperwest
Martin Grove
Eglinton Westestest
 
TossYourJacket said:
Agreed, any expectation that the depth of the station platforms is going to change is pure fantasy, as not only does that impact the design of the station but the entire design of the tunnel, which means running into more and more technical constraints. The best we can hope for is an improved method of transfer between platforms. It's never going to be a Bloor-Yonge situation where you just go down a floor to the other platform, no matter how much people on here wish it would be. It's simply not possible given the surroundings of these stations. Sadly I doubt any consortium is going to spend the money on high-speed elevators either.
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Technical challenges are abound in any engineering works project. Every single one of these challenges needs to be addressed and overcome.

Metrolinx chooses not to overcome the technical challenge of putting the station directly under Line 1 at Queen and Osgoode stations.

Did they do a cost analysis of how much it would cost to relocate the Enwave heating and cooling tunnels, and compare it to the amount of time that you'd be forcing passengers to endure transferring between the OL and Line 1? We're talking about 2-3 minutes extra to navigate the multitude of stairs/escalators for millions of passengers every single year. Bloor-Yonge station handles north of 200,000 passengers per day. It's a safe bet that Osgoode and Queen stations together would handle a similar load of passengers. So, doing the math 200,000 x 250 (working days) x 2.5 minutes = 2.08 million hour. Even at minimum wage, that's $31.25 million per year. Using the average salary in Ontario of $28 per hour (average Ontario salary in 2021 was $60,000 yearly), we get $58.24 million in excess time waste by passengers. Over 20 years, that's over a $1.1 billion in excess time waste by passengers.

We're building a $4.7 billion underground LRT on Eglinton West to service 35,000 daily passengers. Investing even half the amount to serve 200,000 passengers would definitely be better bang for the buck.

Also, the "ground study and vibration" argument is something that I cannot understand at all with the given information. We already have a major heavy rail subway line running through these locations at much shallower depths, and constructed 50+ years ago. What's special about the Ontario Line that requires it to be 35 metres below street level to minimize vibration?
 
fanoftoronto said:
Technical challenges are abound in any engineering works project. Every single one of these challenges needs to be addressed and overcome.

Metrolinx chooses not to overcome the technical challenge of putting the station directly under Line 1 at Queen and Osgoode stations.

Did they do a cost analysis of how much it would cost to relocate the Enwave heating and cooling tunnels, and compare it to the amount of time that you'd be forcing passengers to endure transferring between the OL and Line 1? We're talking about 2-3 minutes extra to navigate the multitude of stairs/escalators for millions of passengers every single year. Bloor-Yonge station handles north of 200,000 passengers per day. It's a safe bet that Osgoode and Queen stations together would handle a similar load of passengers. So, doing the math 200,000 x 250 (working days) x 2.5 minutes = 2.08 million hour. Even at minimum wage, that's $31.25 million per year. Using the average salary in Ontario of $28 per hour (average Ontario salary in 2021 was $60,000 yearly), we get $58.24 million in excess time waste by passengers. Over 20 years, that's over a $1.1 billion in excess time waste by passengers.

We're building a $4.7 billion underground LRT on Eglinton West to service 35,000 daily passengers. Investing even half the amount to serve 200,000 passengers would definitely be better bang for the buck.

Also, the "ground study and vibration" argument is something that I cannot understand at all with the given information. We already have a major heavy rail subway line running through these locations at much shallower depths, and constructed 50+ years ago. What's special about the Ontario Line that requires it to be 35 metres below street level to minimize vibration?
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So let me be clear, I totally agree with you.

But to be fair, it's not just the EnWave system. You have impact on the PATH connections under Queen, the cost of underpinning Line 1 (and notably underpinning line 1 is what delayed the crosstown repeatedly). The cost of mitigating the impact on the structural foundations of every building in the stretch where the tunnel is close to the surface (which would likely be at least between Church and John St, with the Church-University section being the biggest issue due to the towers in the area).

But sadly, the biggest reason here is Metrolinx is a servant of politicians. Conservatives have no interest in being seen to spend money on subways stations downtown (even if those connections would actually be good for people in the suburbs), and tbh, neither do the Liberals or NDP as both just assume they'll win downtown anyway. And deeper tunnels and less vibrations are popular among people who think subways are going to somehow shake their house apart, as stupid as that is.
 
TossYourJacket said:
So let me be clear, I totally agree with you.

But to be fair, it's not just the EnWave system. You have impact on the PATH connections under Queen, the cost of underpinning Line 1 (and notably underpinning line 1 is what delayed the crosstown repeatedly). The cost of mitigating the impact on the structural foundations of every building in the stretch where the tunnel is close to the surface (which would likely be at least between Church and John St, with the Church-University section being the biggest issue due to the towers in the area).

But sadly, the biggest reason here is Metrolinx is a servant of politicians. Conservatives have no interest in being seen to spend money on subways stations downtown (even if those connections would actually be good for people in the suburbs), and tbh, neither do the Liberals or NDP as both just assume they'll win downtown anyway. And deeper tunnels and less vibrations are popular among people who think subways are going to somehow shake their house apart, as stupid as that is.
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Does Queen even need to be underpinned? I would assume that was done when the station was built to accommodate the streetcar platform.
 
JSF-1 said:
Does Queen even need to be underpinned? I would assume that was done when the station was built to accommodate the streetcar platform.
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They probably need to underpin that. Also there really isn't much of it anymore most of it was used for the tunnels underneath the platform for changing sides. One side is fare paid and the other is outside of the fare gates.
 
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