The Preservationist
Active Member
Good grief, the whole real estate model in this city is broken...
Toronto Long Branch Tower | 143.4m | 43s | Toronto Standard | Studio JCI
- Thread starter Northern Light
- Start date
zanimum
New Member
Yes, it is near a GO station.
But how much capacity does the Lakeshore West line actually have? There's increased density along the entire route, and even if you had infinite stock of trains, you can only run trains so close to each other during rush hours.
This is the station where the woman suffered life-threatening injuries while on the platform, albeit one under renovation, supposedly getting hooked by a passing express train.
Northern Light
Superstar
Note number 1 is for @Paclo
@christiesplits tagged me above......... the tag is highlighted, it leads to my page..............but I didn't get a notification. Seems odd.
Next, let me copy a good chunk of the Cover Letter over, so people can see the details
Then the Statistical Summary from the Planning Report:
Now to address the substance.
1) If vehicle access from Lake Shore was unfortunate before.......it's absurd now........
If, as the proponents clearly did, you read my comments and make adjustments don't forget to make the important ones first.......
Vehicle access should not be from Lake Shore...........
2) In theory, I'm open to discussion on more intensive intensification.......
However.........there is no subway here, the Lake Shore streetcar is infrequent and unreliable...........
The sole transit-basis for this application is GO. That works, IF, GO is every 15M or better and the fare to Union in line w/the TTC's regular fare.
Today, we're not there.
Today, you cannot have your 43-storey tower.
I don't live anywhere near here, and I'm pro-development. If I'm telling you you're over-reaching.........and it's not particularly close.......you're over......
@christiesplits tagged me above......... the tag is highlighted, it leads to my page..............but I didn't get a notification. Seems odd.
Next, let me copy a good chunk of the Cover Letter over, so people can see the details
Then the Statistical Summary from the Planning Report:
Now to address the substance.
1) If vehicle access from Lake Shore was unfortunate before.......it's absurd now........
If, as the proponents clearly did, you read my comments and make adjustments don't forget to make the important ones first.......
Vehicle access should not be from Lake Shore...........
2) In theory, I'm open to discussion on more intensive intensification.......
However.........there is no subway here, the Lake Shore streetcar is infrequent and unreliable...........
The sole transit-basis for this application is GO. That works, IF, GO is every 15M or better and the fare to Union in line w/the TTC's regular fare.
Today, we're not there.
Today, you cannot have your 43-storey tower.
I don't live anywhere near here, and I'm pro-development. If I'm telling you you're over-reaching.........and it's not particularly close.......you're over......
rdaner
Senior Member
I believe that there is bus service heading north to the subway as well as the services etc. available on Queensway and Bloor? And we have bikes, Uber, scooters and walking!
Northern Light
Superstar
That's nice..........there's also sunlight and drinking water........and a convenience store a few blocks away.......
Maybe try to link your comments to actual mathematical models of modal split and demand fulfillment.
rdaner
Senior Member
The ones the highway planners use? Or how about the ones that I studied in university that have long lists of assumptions based outdated beliefs? I trust people enough to make the necessary lifestyle adjustments if they choose to live here. And there are reviews of service levels to make changes where needed based on what has actually occurred organically.
I distrust anyone who snears at people’s actual needs interfering with their pet theories. Nostalgia is not a planning tool.
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UtakataNoAnnex
Senior Member
...if that's a requirement to comment every time we comment on this stuff here, I don't think anyone would be allowed to comment. Just like those who require to get the facts right before commenting, this it's not really that necessary or important here. Rather let it be that the poster can make the comment and if they're wrong or off the rails, then that can be debated and given account to without the unnecessary finger wagging. Policing readers for the factual facts can be annoying at times if not very productive, IMO. >.<
jmi22
Active Member
Sad to see the originally proposed mid rise isn't happening, as I really loved the look of it. But this looks as decent as any other run of the mill high rise going up in the city right now.
I'd bet the tower will be cut down to 35 stories by the time it gets through the OLT, but it sets the stage for some truly insane heights at the no-frills plaza redevelopment. The city is already putting together a SASP* for the whole piece of land north of Lakeshore and south of the tracks east to the current Minto site. Would not be shocked if whatever goes in on the plaza closest to the GO station aims for 50 stories.
I look forward to attending the Long Branch Neighbourhood Association about this and watching the panic ensue. One has to wonder when the infamously stubborn LNBA will finally call it a day. If the Annex Residents Association or North Toronto Ratepayers are anything to go off it won't be any time soon.
*
www.toronto.ca
I'd bet the tower will be cut down to 35 stories by the time it gets through the OLT, but it sets the stage for some truly insane heights at the no-frills plaza redevelopment. The city is already putting together a SASP* for the whole piece of land north of Lakeshore and south of the tracks east to the current Minto site. Would not be shocked if whatever goes in on the plaza closest to the GO station aims for 50 stories.
I look forward to attending the Long Branch Neighbourhood Association about this and watching the panic ensue. One has to wonder when the infamously stubborn LNBA will finally call it a day. If the Annex Residents Association or North Toronto Ratepayers are anything to go off it won't be any time soon.
*
Lake Shore Boulevard West Avenue Study
The City is undertaking an Avenue Study to update the existing policy framework for Site and Area Specific Policy Area (SASP) 21, located along Lake Shore Boulevard West from Brown’s Line to Dwight Avenue. The Avenue Study will assess the built form, streetscape and public realm through...
www.toronto.ca
jmi22
Active Member
The 507 is actually the fastest operating streetcar* in the city and the only one hitting the TTCs on time standards**, while also being the most under-utilized 24/7 line in the network***
It is also the only existing streetcar thats going to have a new exclusive transit right of way constructed ****
The 507 is perhaps the most prime streetcar line to put large amounts of TOD on in the city from an operational standpoint, especially devs with such low parking ratios.
https://stevemunro.ca/2024/01/23/how-slow-is-my-streetcar-part-i/ *
https://cdn.ttc.ca/-/media/Project/...1f8b3a8&hash=EFF98B13F047A0AE4BF7EEF5587BAFFD **
https://stevemunro.ca/2023/11/13/ttc-ridership-update-october-2023/ ***
https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2022/ie/bgrd/backgroundfile-224367.pdf ****
Northern Light
Superstar
With respect, I will disagree, and here's why.
The issue is not whether the streetcar is on time, or quick for local trips, it's the speed of the trip to primary place of employment.
For the purposes of consider E-W trips, in the Lake Shore-Queen Corridor, I considered 3 large employment nodes.
Downtown, CAMH, and St. Joes.
Assuming your starting point is Long Branch Loop, these show the following commute times:
Downtown:
CAMH:
St. Joe's
Only the last of these is even remotely reasonable, and that's for a Saturday Afternoon.
GO Transit could serve the DT bound demand, however, that does come at a modest price premium to TTC ($4 ride) It's also currently quite infrequent outside of peak periods, and it won't serve the other nodes I noted.
The current neighbourhood is very autocentric. There is no reason to believe adding a large tower will change that.
***
Also, the new exclusive ROW on Lake Shore you note is only from Humber Loop to Parkside, literally about 3 blocks, it's not the entire route, and would not deliver a large change in travel times.
jmi22
Active Member
This was fundamentally not your critique of transit in the area in the comment I was responding to. Your claim the 507 is abnormally unreliable was false, and in terms of frequency the line's inclusion in the 10 minute network makes it roughly typical in terms of suburban frequencies. You can be wrong about something, it is not the end of world.
In terms of access to job centres your estimation of travel times to downtown is simply ridiculous and I feel you know that. Commuters to the core from Long Branch overwhelmingly utilize the GO train, and in two decades of living here I have never actually encountered someone commuting daily into the core wholly by streetcar. Sitting smack dab in the middle of Long Branch at the moment, no where near the GO station, it would only take me 44 minutes to reach Union. It's really easy to exaggerate trip times when you ignore the primary and fastest mode of commute, but it is a completely unserious argument.
As for concerns over the GO Lakeshore West line being "quite infrequent outside of peak periods" it currently runs every 30 minutes all day every day during the work week, and every 15 minutes all day every day during the weekend. There is no 'off peak' fall off in service, if anything service increases during the off peak period.
It is no longer the 90's, GO has changed.
As for your two other 'largest employment modes' I would counter Sherway Gardens and the large South Etobicoke industrial zone are much larger and more relevant employment nodes to the site in question. I have of course not bothered to consult census or survey data yet, as you did not while making your employment claims. Purely observational.
Even with markedly less frequent weekend service, access to these hubs of industrial and service employment are highly accesible at under 30 minutes each. (The Petro Canada is simply a placeholder for the rough centre of the large industrial zone.)
As for the right of way extension, I am well aware of its scope, and for clarity it is being extended from Humber Loop west to Legion road, not east to Parkside as it already exists there. Travel times through Humber Bay Shores where the new ROW is being constructed should be improved and provide better reliability for the planned future terminus of the 501 at the new GO station loop on the christie site (another soon to come massive job centre to be highly accessible from this site).
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Northern Light
Superstar
It is fair to note that I made those additional claims, however, you're omitting the very first portion of my statement that included that.
The correct comparison is not a suburban bus route, but to higher-order transit. The standard for subways outside of late night service is generally every 5 minutes or better.
Indeed, and I am wrong from time to time and I not only admit that when it's the case, I also leave the error and strike through it when edited in a correction.
I also apologize, as I take my accuracy in posting very seriously, and consider it a profound problem is I am erroneous in any assertion.
Notwithstanding the care I take, generally double and triple checking myself before posting, I do get the odd thing wrong.
I'm simply not persuaded that that is the case here, excepting, perhaps, that I gave too much emphasis to reliability on the 507.
***
However, even if I accept the statistic you published, I would point out that 75% compares to 94% reliability for GO Transit
The October KPI for TTC also shows Line 1 at just over 80% OTP, and Line 2 at just over 90% OTP and Line 4 at 99% OTP.
While the bus network in that report shows as having an 82% OTP overall.
Source: https://cdn.ttc.ca/-/media/Project/...5d08a2f&hash=EDDD2B347E567F1BE11D6B3E3F7A6771
In that context, 75% doesn't seem like a particularly good performance. Keeping in mind that the TTC measures reliability poorly on all routes (only at the terminals) and affords +1 / -5 as an acceptable band for OTP .....making that much more of a potential concern * though this applies equally to all routes).
Its means an every 10M service that in real life runs as that sees vehicle 1 arrived 1M early, and vehicle 2 arrive 5M late actually counts as on-time service. Which could leave you with a 16M gap.
I didn't make any estimates. Why are you being insulting? I took those directly from the TTC's Trip Planner. That's the TTC's calculation, not mine.
I plugged in Long Branch Loop and then University Avenue for downtown, Shaw for CAMH, and Glendale for St. Joes. That's it. The times are not mine, feel free to argue w/the TTC about them.
Right, and every 30M is not frequent, by any measure. That peak service is as poor as it is multiplies the problem, it does not lessen it any.
The comparison is a subway, none of which every run less frequently than every 8M
Which are not located along the 507 route, and therefore not germane to that particular point of discussion.
If you wish to contend that those employment nodes are relevant, that's fine; then we can discussion the desirability of transit from Long Branch to those locations.
I only examined the employment nodes along the route you selected.
Now, that said, if you would like data on employment density, here you go:
The above it taken from a map on p.23 of the Toronto Employment Survey.
That can be found here:
Darker Blue indicates greater employment density.
You will note that the hospital does get a Dark Blue polygon while CAMH gets one shade lighter.
I do note that I omitted one employment node on Lake Shore, which I should not have overlooked, the one Dark Blue Polygon you see above is Humber College.
While I have gone and sourced the data, I do note that it supports your conclusion about Sherway Gardens, which, would also reflect the Hospital campus there as well.
Shorcliffe does indeed provide good service to that area.
As to whether that is sufficient to support a series of 40s towers........I'll admit to doubts, but that would require a deeper dive on the data.
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Amare
Senior Member
Umm well this is quite...excessive i'd say. Way too excessive actually.
Nothing in a even comes remotely close to this in height in a 2km+ radius. The next closest would be those towers across from Sherway Gardens, or the cluster of towers by Humber Bay.
I know the area extremely well, and this is a proposal that's complete lunacy. This is exactly why I hate it when developers use stations as a de-facto right to propose 40-50+ story towers, irrespective to where a station is located. In this case, they are using Long Branch GO as an excuse to shoot for the moon, when it reality this makes absolutely no sense.
I'm all for intensifying around Long Branch GO, but this is not the way to do so.
Nothing in a even comes remotely close to this in height in a 2km+ radius. The next closest would be those towers across from Sherway Gardens, or the cluster of towers by Humber Bay.
I know the area extremely well, and this is a proposal that's complete lunacy. This is exactly why I hate it when developers use stations as a de-facto right to propose 40-50+ story towers, irrespective to where a station is located. In this case, they are using Long Branch GO as an excuse to shoot for the moon, when it reality this makes absolutely no sense.
I'm all for intensifying around Long Branch GO, but this is not the way to do so.
its_Caffeine
New Member
It's so disappointing this attitude exists even on this forum.
I don't how many times it needs to get repeated to NIMBYs why this kind of build happens in the first place. Literally nothing can get built on that sea of single-family homes. Literally nothing. Ask any developer whether they can make any kind of return there and they will tell you it's frankly impossible.
There are no returns to be had for developers to convert a single family house to gentle density when they have to fight hoards of 50+ year old angry boomers who bought their houses for 7 raspberries in the 60s, plus all kinds of inane time-consuming city regulation just to convert 1 unit into 4. The maximal returns are being had in condos because after fighting hoards of angry boomers, fighting city hall for all kinds of measly regulatory rubbish like traffic, sun and wind studies that nobody frankly cares about, they can get a marginal ROI when they can build 400 units at once.
If you don't like it, call your local counselor and make it clear there's a need for zoning, regulatory speedups and reform.
G_DOG
Active Member
i think alot of those strip plazas on lake shore all the way from long branch to mimico can be replaced with midrises just like on queensway. im all for height, but this is a little much.