Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[afransen]

When they announced the extension of Line 2 to Sheppard and McCowan, I assumed that was to be the terminus of any future Line 4 extension. I think anyone expecting this to be extended into Malvern in one phase will be disappointed. That would be 11 km, all underground. That's longer than the tunneled section of the crosstown!

To me, it is doubtful it will ever make sense to extend subway to Malvern. It's kind of a dead-end neighbourhood that would not attract much more bus-up traffic which is how subways in Toronto drive ridership. Similarly, but perhaps not as strongly, I doubt Line 2 will extend further north vs OL which will be far more cost effective to extend.

 

[Rainforest]

IMO, Line 4 will not go past McCowan, unless Line 4 is converted to some kind of light metro. The TTC wide body subway is too massive to be tunneled far, or to run on an elevated guideway in the middle of the street.

For Malvern, there is one chance to get a subway: Line 2 running along the CP rail corridor, mostly at-grade. Still low ridership, but the construction cost much lower than for a tunnel. Discussed a few times in this thread.

 

[Aplus23]

Bring the Sheppard line to Markham or Morningside, and then make the EELRT run into Malvern with some type interchange station with the Sheppard line.

Scarborough needs RT east of McCowan.

 

[sixrings]

Bring the Sheppard line to Markham or Morningside, and then make the EELRT run into Malvern with some type interchange station with the Sheppard line.

Scarborough needs RT east of McCowan.

I think Scarborough should have every last cent of transit funds. Forget about Ontario line west. Forget about finch west lrt extension. Forget about connecting sheppard to sheppard west. Forget about waterfront transit. Every last cent to Scarborough. Despite being utopia it has been neglected for years. Now the entire GTA can see how great Scarborough is.

Sixrings. A former Scarborough resident.

 

[APTA-2048]

For Malvern, there is one chance to get a subway: Line 2 running along the CP rail corridor, mostly at-grade. Still low ridership, but the construction cost much lower than for a tunnel. Discussed a few times in this thread.

But since Line 2 goes north, wouldn’t Line 4 make more sense to continue east in the CP corridor?

 

[Rainforest]

But since Line 2 goes north, wouldn’t Line 4 make more sense to continue east in the CP corridor?

On one hand, yes.

On the other hand, the Line 2 terminus is being built at McCowan & Sheppard, that's 400 m south of the CP corridor. If we want to get Line 4 to connect to the Line 2 terminus and then swing to the CP corridor, that seems to require building a tight curve.

While Line 2 could just continue north and then gently curve north-east along the CP corridor, before emerging from the tunnel.

 

[Rainforest]

Bring the Sheppard line to Markham or Morningside, and then make the EELRT run into Malvern with some type interchange station with the Sheppard line.

Scarborough needs RT east of McCowan.

It needs RT east of McCowan, but not sure you will like that particular network.

Say, someone in Malvern wants to reach Line 2. One option is taking the LRT to Sheppard, then Line 4 to McCowan, then going to Line 2. Two transfers just to reach Line 2. Or, stay on the LRT all the way to Kennedy. One transfer saved, but a slow indirect trip on the LRT with a diversion to Morningside is required. Probably 30-35 min from Malvern Centre to Kennedy, while simply taking the bus to McCowan subway and then Line 2 can get you to Kennedy in ~ 20 min.

Same for the Sheppard bus serving the stops east of Line 4 terminus; two transfers required just to reach Line 2.

Since Line 2 will be the new main transit trunk for Scarborough, it seems that any other line that runs east of McCowan should reach the eastern border of the city.

 

[T3G]

A point about the unending expansion of line 2: does it have the capacity to carry so many people from Scarborough downtown as well as its current clientele? What safeguarding is there against it turning into the next Yonge line?

 

[APTA-2048]

On one hand, yes.

On the other hand, the Line 2 terminus is being built at McCowan & Sheppard, that's 400 m south of the CP corridor. If we want to get Line 4 to connect to the Line 2 terminus and then swing to the CP corridor, that seems to require building a tight curve.

While Line 2 could just continue north and then gently curve north-east along the CP corridor, before emerging from the tunnel.

That makes sense. I guess I pictured the Line 2 station closer to the train tracks because of where the bus terminal is.

 

[Rainforest]

A point about the unending expansion of line 2: does it have the capacity to carry so many people from Scarborough downtown as well as its current clientele? What safeguarding is there against it turning into the next Yonge line?

The OL connection at Pape is going to provide some level of relief, diverting a fair number of downtown-bound riders before Line 2 reaches its busiest point near Yonge.

Not sure if that counts as complete safeguarding. We are always playing a catch up game with transit capacity, and Line 2 is not an exception.

One can say though that many of the riders boarding the Line 2 extension would be on that subway in any case, just would take a bus to get there.

 

[T3G]

One can say though that many of the riders boarding the Line 2 extension would be on that subway in any case, just would take a bus to get there.

But if an LRT was built in its place, it probably wouldn't generate as much new development and density as a subway. In trying to serve the local interests of the population, I fear we will end up creating a problem that will be felt along the entire eastern portion of the line.

 

[TRONto]

But if an LRT was built in its place, it probably wouldn't generate as much new development and density as a subway. In trying to serve the local interests of the population, I fear we will end up creating a problem that will be felt along the entire eastern portion of the line.

I'd have to disagree with this specific point. Development these days is more a function of what is buildable than what type of rapid transit is nearby. This is played out on the Eglinton LRT (esp east of Vic Park) vs Line 2 (really all of Line 2, not just Scarborough)

 

[TRONto]

Bring the Sheppard line to Markham or Morningside, and then make the EELRT run into Malvern with some type interchange station with the Sheppard line.

Scarborough needs RT east of McCowan.

I just did a check on a map (not real conditions), with Line 2 and 4 extended to McCowan, this might put most Scarborough residents within a 20 minute bus ride of rapid transit (Line, 2, 4, 5)? I think that's pretty good if true.

 

[sixrings]

I just did a check on a map (not real conditions), with Line 2 and 4 extended to McCowan, this might put most Scarborough residents within a 20 minute bus ride of rapid transit (Line, 2, 4, 5)? I think that's pretty good if true.

Damn it. Every single person in Scarborough deserves a subway station at their door front. No matter if they live in an apartment, a semi, a town house, a detached or in the zoo. A subway station for everyone.

 

[Rainforest]

But if an LRT was built in its place, it probably wouldn't generate as much new development and density as a subway. In trying to serve the local interests of the population, I fear we will end up creating a problem that will be felt along the entire eastern portion of the line.

Well, you just described the general pattern of our transit construction being behind the curve. Line 2 is no exception.

I think both effects take place. Some of the riders would get on the subway whether it is extended or not, as the density would grow elsewhere, and then the riders take a bus or LRT to the subway. Some riders will be there because of the subway extension, and would not come otherwise. Other things equal, a longer subway will attract more riders, and thus will be more at risk of being overloaded.