Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[Ward8]

Fundamentally wrong.

And even comically absurd.

GO's Lakeshore East corridor runs almost entirely parallel to the 401 here, the answer to alleviating traffic in this corridor is self-evident, 15-minute (or better), all-day GO
Service, lower GO Fares, lower-regional fares for TTC-DRT connections, and more frequent DRT service.

When all of that is done, along w/the Bomanville extension of GO then, and only then, should we revisit the idea of widening the 401, and then, only with great reluctance.

Fully agree.
We need to be organizing transportation infrastructure and zoning reform in a way that leads to future lane reductions. That should be the ultimate goal.

 

[Kitsune]

soo reading the tea leaves situation with Highway 69 .... the Shawanaga Reserve opened a new gas station along highway 69: https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/...dits-indigenous-source-with-savings-1.5871822

I marked the spot with a red x with the proposed highway:

so I wonder if we are about to hear another bout of Highway 69 four laning in the near future ...

 

[innsertnamehere]

IIRC they were requesting an "On-route" type station run by them in the negotiations. Who knows.

 

[lenaitch]

There is another recently (I think last year) alongside 400 in Wahta FNT south of Mactier (plus a new one on MR 38 east of Hwy 400).

I don't know about the OnRoute request. Since they are direct access, on highway property, you would need one each for both n/b and s/b and I'm not sure there would be the business. Also, I though the vendor contracts were exclusive to all OnRoutes, at least for the fuel (Canadian Tire).

 

[ShonTron]

The location of the new gas station at Shawanaga offers the easiest in and out possible with the planned parclo, and keeps it out of the way just enough so construction can take place. It might have been in the negotiations for the highway to proceed through the First Nation.

The Wahta FN negotiated for a parclo off the 400 to close the “Wahta Gap” that originally led to a cranberry farm, which later closed. The FN then built their own gas station and installed electronic billboards (which, as a First Nation they can do, unlike most landowners adjacent to MTO highways).

 

[lenaitch]

The location of the new gas station at Shawanaga offers the easiest in and out possible with the planned parclo, and keeps it out of the way just enough so construction can take place. It might have been in the negotiations for the highway to proceed through the First Nation.

The Wahta FN negotiated for a parclo off the 400 to close the “Wahta Gap” that originally led to a cranberry farm, which later closed. The FN then built their own gas station and installed electronic billboards (which, as a First Nation they can do, unlike most landowners adjacent to MTO highways).

The new station in Wahta is less than ideal since it is past the interchange for n/b traffic and not in the sightline of the interchange, but I suppose regular travellers will get used to it.

The electronic sign thing is curious. If they had installed them about 30' back, they would have been off highway property (not counting 'air rights') and probably built what they pleased. I'm not sure why they did it the way they did. As for other sign users, from my observation, the MTO has either changed their policy or given up enforcing it regarding on and off property signs.

 

[ShonTron]

The new station in Wahta is less than ideal since it is past the interchange for n/b traffic and not in the sightline of the interchange, but I suppose regular travellers will get used to it.

The electronic sign thing is curious. If they had installed them about 30' back, they would have been off highway property (not counting 'air rights') and probably built what they pleased. I'm not sure why they did it the way they did. As for other sign users, from my observation, the MTO has either changed their policy or given up enforcing it regarding on and off property signs.

Metrolinx figured out that as a federally regulated railway (by way of GO’s purchases of track from CN and CP) it could make money putting up billboards where its rail corridors intersect 400-series highways. CN and CP also figured it out.

 

[timio]

I've had to drive through this section a number of times recently, it does get pretty busy and packed in the 2-lane section. It'll be nice to see this widening happen. As soon as you go on 40 southbound towards Chatham though, it becomes empty very quickly.

There's some major new industrial development happening in the area though (Nova Chemicals AST Polyethylene on Rokeby and Crown Royal Distillery on Moore) so I'm hoping the highway begins to get used a little more.

If/when this ever happens, it should be fairly straightforward. The right of way exists already, although the highway crosses from the one side to the other south of the CN overpass.

I also recall some discussion about making it controlled access beyond London Road / 402. There were objections from the fire department over potential plans to skip an interchange at Wellington due to lack of space.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Today's provincial budget will also apparently include widening the 401 east of Toronto from Pickering to Oshawa:

Ontario budget today includes widening Hwy. 401 east of Toronto, twinning QEW bridge

The budget announcement is expected to stand as the Progressive Conservative government's election platform

nationalpost.com

upon reading the actual budget, it says "bridge replacements in preparation for the widening of Highway 401" - so no actual widening so far at least. It's referencing the bridge replacements through Central Oshawa, which are the oldest overpasses on the provincial freeway network today, dating from the late 1930's. Well needed infrastructure that any party would be supporting.

 

[ericmacm]

If/when this ever happens, it should be fairly straightforward. The right of way exists already, although the highway crosses from the one side to the other south of the CN overpass.

I also recall some discussion about making it controlled access beyond London Road / 402. There were objections from the fire department over potential plans to skip an interchange at Wellington due to lack of space.

Yup, the ROW is already there and there is enough room so it'll be a relatively easy project to bring to completion.

There are grading permits reserved by MTO for full-sized interchanges along the route, including at Wellington, so it does remain a possibility in the future. I don't see full interchanges becoming necessary until Sarnia gets a little bigger with more development east of 40, or we see more development south in St. Clair Township.

 

[Haljackey]

Today's provincial budget will also apparently include widening the 401 east of Toronto from Pickering to Oshawa:

Ontario budget today includes widening Hwy. 401 east of Toronto, twinning QEW bridge

The budget announcement is expected to stand as the Progressive Conservative government's election platform

nationalpost.com

Fundamentally wrong.

And even comically absurd.

GO's Lakeshore East corridor runs almost entirely parallel to the 401 here, the answer to alleviating traffic in this corridor is self-evident, 15-minute (or better), all-day GO
Service, lower GO Fares, lower-regional fares for TTC-DRT connections, and more frequent DRT service.

When all of that is done, along w/the Bomanville extension of GO then, and only then, should we revisit the idea of widening the 401, and then, only with great reluctance.

401 EB is a major bottleneck here. At Salem Road you go from 5 lanes to just 3. That's real dumb and causes a lot of backup. A more staggered lane drop will help a ton. You don't need to widen too much. Get 5 lanes to the 412 where 1 exits (now that the 412 is free its kinda warranted to have a dedicated exit lane), and then run a 4th a little longer to Thickson or Stevenson roads. You may as well roughly mirror that config westbound.

Guess we will have to wait and see what the actual proposal is here. It could be some minor widening such as what I described above, or the full collector-express system extension to the 412 + HOVs.

 

[Ward8]

401 EB is a major bottleneck here. At Salem Road you go from 5 lanes to just 3. That's real dumb and causes a lot of backup

Worth noting that bottlenecks can be smoothed out by removing lanes as well. Added capacity inevitably increases congestion. More cars = More traffic. It's the trade off of expansion. I don't expect any lane reductions to happen in my lifetime, but perpetual expansion is a never ending game of whak-a-mole. If we want to improve congestion long term we need to think much differently about how we use highways in a city like Toronto.

 

[ARG1]

Worth noting that bottlenecks can be smoothed out by removing lanes as well. Added capacity inevitably increases congestion. More cars = More traffic. It's the trade off of expansion. I don't expect any lane reductions to happen in my lifetime, but perpetual expansion is a never ending game of whak-a-mole. If we want to improve congestion long term we need to think much differently about how we use highways in a city like Toronto.

Its a 1 way street, adding capacity eventually increases congestion, but once you remove capacity, that congestion isn't necessarily going to go away. Demand doesn't typically disappear, it can only be redirected. If demand could magically disappear when supply was reduced, I don't think we would have a housing crisis.

 

[afransen]

Its a 1 way street, adding capacity eventually increases congestion, but once you remove capacity, that congestion isn't necessarily going to go away. Demand doesn't typically disappear, it can only be redirected. If demand could magically disappear when supply was reduced, I don't think we would have a housing crisis.

Induced demand works both ways.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Induced demand works both ways.

I guess we could just close all the provincial freeways then and all the traffic would magically disappear and everyone would be living in a wonderful paradise of easy mobility then!

Induced demand isn't a linear thing and is fairly complex. A new lane isn't automatically sucked up with new traffic, cancelling out all benefits, especially in many locations without alternatives. Same with removing a lane - the traffic isn't going to just magically disappear without any consequences. Some trips will disappear.. with reduced economic activity from it and congestion on the remaining roads will generally increase as not everyone can simply stop travelling.