Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[mtomo]

The problem is that the signage lied for a few weeks, telling drivers the 403 exit was further down while in reality you had to take Ford Drive still. Drivers kept taking the Ford Drive exit despite the signage, then when the ramp did open there was no signage to tell them that it had changed.

They could at least post detour signage. For example if you're forced to exit at Ford Drive and want to get to Hwy 403 they can put those oranges D-1 signs telling you to turn left on Ford Dr, turn right on Upper Middle Rd and then turn left on Hwy 403 EB

 

[MisterF]

If the 401/Yonge Street interchange is redesigned competently it could go a long way in making that area less of a death trap to people walking or biking. And between the bike lanes set to be installed on Yonge next year, the Yonge redesign in North York that will hopefully get approved tomorrow, and this project we could someday have a pretty decent north-south cycling route along the Yonge corridor.

I know, that's a lot of ifs.

Expanding the 401 across Ontario makes sense economically. It is the lifeblood of this province.

I think it would make even more sense economically to expand intercity rail and other highways to spread out traffic. The 401 is mainly the lifeblood because we have so few other routes. Quebec, for example, has two highways from Montreal to Quebec City. Instead of widening the 401 east of Cobourg to 6 lanes, we could expand Highway 7 between Peterborough and Carleton Place, which is a more direct route and would divert a large amount of traffic off the 401. It would also bring economic benefits to that part of eastern Ontario. Via's HFR plan has the potential to expand the modal share of trains significantly, reducing pressure on the 401 further. Similarly, substantial rail expansion to southwestern Ontario and Niagara would do the same there.

That's kind of weird.

I use this interchange in London often and to use the ramp to the Highbury Ave freeway section in London, you need to yield to the bike lane

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Odd how it isn't structured the same on provincial interchanges

It is at some interchanges, like Highway 7 at the 404. Pedestrians are still forced to cross an on-ramp though, dodging accelerating cars. The standard MTO design for interchanges is awful for anyone who's not in a car.

 

[Northern Light]

If the 401/Yonge Street interchange is redesigned competently it could go a long way in making that area less of a death trap to people walking or biking.

No promises, LOL; but it is my understanding talks have resumed between the City and the MTO about this.

 

[lenaitch]

I think it would make even more sense economically to expand intercity rail and other highways to spread out traffic. The 401 is mainly the lifeblood because we have so few other routes. Quebec, for example, has two highways from Montreal to Quebec City. Instead of widening the 401 east of Cobourg to 6 lanes, we could expand Highway 7 between Peterborough and Carleton Place, which is a more direct route and would divert a large amount of traffic off the 401. It would also bring economic benefits to that part of eastern Ontario. Via's HFR plan has the potential to expand the modal share of trains significantly, reducing pressure on the 401 further. Similarly, substantial rail expansion to southwestern Ontario and Niagara would do the same there.

Given that any expansion of Hwy 7 would necessitate bypassing most or all of the communities along the route, I'm not there there would much in the way of significant economic benefit. If that were true, one would expect to see an uptick in highway-related economic growth in communities in the Hwy 400/69 and 11 corridors and I'm not sure there is much evidence of that. Many would argue the opposite, since travellers are now bypassing the towns. An expanded highway to Ottawa might bleed off some private traffic, but most of the commercial 401 traffic is bound for Montreal/points east.

 

[MisterF]

Given that any expansion of Hwy 7 would necessitate bypassing most or all of the communities along the route, I'm not there there would much in the way of significant economic benefit. If that were true, one would expect to see an uptick in highway-related economic growth in communities in the Hwy 400/69 and 11 corridors and I'm not sure there is much evidence of that. Many would argue the opposite, since travellers are now bypassing the towns. An expanded highway to Ottawa might bleed off some private traffic, but most of the commercial 401 traffic is bound for Montreal/points east.

Point taken about bypassing communities. Either way, the economic lifeline that the 401 represents could be spread out over two highways (and rail) instead of just one. I'd argue that a widened Highway 7 corridor would bleed off a lot more than "some" private traffic. Just look at where people are going today. From Cobourg to the 416, traffic on the 401 is remarkably consistent, around 35,000-40,000 cars per day at any given spot. At the 416 traffic suddenly drops almost in half, to just under 20,000, and almost all those cars are heading up the 416 towards Ottawa. So if the shorter Highway 7 route were widened, it's fair to say that a lot of that traffic would avoid the 401 altogether. It would basically be the same relationship that the 401 and 417 have east of Ottawa, or Autoroutes 20 and 40 in Quebec.

Ontario has a curious habit of putting all its eggs in one basket when it comes to infrastructure. We rely too much on the 401 in the same way that Toronto relies too much on the Yonge subway. They're both overloaded because there's very little in the way of alternatives or redundancy. In both cases a single shutdown cripples the whole system, and in both cases an alternate route would siphon off a lot of people.

 

[ARG1]

Point taken about bypassing communities. Either way, the economic lifeline that the 401 represents could be spread out over two highways (and rail) instead of just one. I'd argue that a widened Highway 7 corridor would bleed off a lot more than "some" private traffic. Just look at where people are going today. From Cobourg to the 416, traffic on the 401 is remarkably consistent, around 35,000-40,000 cars per day at any given spot. At the 416 traffic suddenly drops almost in half, to just under 20,000, and almost all those cars are heading up the 416 towards Ottawa. So if the shorter Highway 7 route were widened, it's fair to say that a lot of that traffic would avoid the 401 altogether. It would basically be the same relationship that the 401 and 417 have east of Ottawa, or Autoroutes 20 and 40 in Quebec.

Ontario has a curious habit of putting all its eggs in one basket when it comes to infrastructure. We rely too much on the 401 in the same way that Toronto relies too much on the Yonge subway. They're both overloaded because there's very little in the way of alternatives or redundancy. In both cases a single shutdown cripples the whole system, and in both cases an alternate route would siphon off a lot of people.

Tbf, with 407 East being finished, it actually makes Highway 7 a viable alternative in its current state (granted that assumes you are willing to pay for the 407 from 115 to 404).

 

[gweed123]

Point taken about bypassing communities. Either way, the economic lifeline that the 401 represents could be spread out over two highways (and rail) instead of just one. I'd argue that a widened Highway 7 corridor would bleed off a lot more than "some" private traffic. Just look at where people are going today. From Cobourg to the 416, traffic on the 401 is remarkably consistent, around 35,000-40,000 cars per day at any given spot. At the 416 traffic suddenly drops almost in half, to just under 20,000, and almost all those cars are heading up the 416 towards Ottawa. So if the shorter Highway 7 route were widened, it's fair to say that a lot of that traffic would avoid the 401 altogether. It would basically be the same relationship that the 401 and 417 have east of Ottawa, or Autoroutes 20 and 40 in Quebec.

Ontario has a curious habit of putting all its eggs in one basket when it comes to infrastructure. We rely too much on the 401 in the same way that Toronto relies too much on the Yonge subway. They're both overloaded because there's very little in the way of alternatives or redundancy. In both cases a single shutdown cripples the whole system, and in both cases an alternate route would siphon off a lot of people.

I agree completely. I feel like Highway 7 would be a more popular alternative for Toronto-Ottawa traffic if it wasn't two lanes for the majority of the route. From the 416-417 interchange to the 401-115 interchange, it's about 40km shorter to take Hwys 7/115 than it is to take Hwys 416/401. At freeway speeds on both routes, you're looking at a savings of at least 20 minutes.

In Eastern Ontario, the two most needed freeway projects are the extension of 417 to Renfrew (and potentially Pembroke), and the extension of the 400-series Hwy 7 from Carleton Place to Perth. The extension to Renfrew is in the works now, but there is pretty much nothing happening on the extension of 7.

 

[lenaitch]

Point taken about bypassing communities. Either way, the economic lifeline that the 401 represents could be spread out over two highways (and rail) instead of just one. I'd argue that a widened Highway 7 corridor would bleed off a lot more than "some" private traffic. Just look at where people are going today. From Cobourg to the 416, traffic on the 401 is remarkably consistent, around 35,000-40,000 cars per day at any given spot. At the 416 traffic suddenly drops almost in half, to just under 20,000, and almost all those cars are heading up the 416 towards Ottawa. So if the shorter Highway 7 route were widened, it's fair to say that a lot of that traffic would avoid the 401 altogether. It would basically be the same relationship that the 401 and 417 have east of Ottawa, or Autoroutes 20 and 40 in Quebec.

Ontario has a curious habit of putting all its eggs in one basket when it comes to infrastructure. We rely too much on the 401 in the same way that Toronto relies too much on the Yonge subway. They're both overloaded because there's very little in the way of alternatives or redundancy. In both cases a single shutdown cripples the whole system, and in both cases an alternate route would siphon off a lot of people.

Interesting numbers. Thanks. I looked up some AADT for 416 - I had no idea it has become that high. It's been number of years since I travelled it, but any time I was on it it seemed pretty light. How times have changed apparently.

 

[MisterF]

Interesting numbers. Thanks. I looked up some AADT for 416 - I had no idea it has become that high. It's been number of years since I travelled it, but any time I was on it it seemed pretty light. How times have changed apparently.

I'm not sure why exactly but it feels like the ties between Toronto and Ottawa have strengthened significantly over the last 20 years. You can see it in highway traffic, airline and train schedules, and the HFR proposal. Maybe the expansion of companies like Spotify has something to do with it.

 

[gweed123]

I'm not sure why exactly but it feels like the ties between Toronto and Ottawa have strengthened significantly over the last 20 years. You can see it in highway traffic, airline and train schedules, and the HFR proposal. Maybe the expansion of companies like Spotify has something to do with it.

I wonder if the tech sector has something to do with it. Kanata is still a pretty big tech hub, and over the past 20 years both K-W and Markham have become pretty big with tech too. I wouldn't be surprised if there are quite a few companies that have offices in 2 or maybe all 3 of those locations, and those multiple locations require more travel between them.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Interesting numbers. Thanks. I looked up some AADT for 416 - I had no idea it has become that high. It's been number of years since I travelled it, but any time I was on it it seemed pretty light. How times have changed apparently.

I mean the highway is less than 25 years old. It was really the last "key" 400 series highway to get built in the province - and understandably was fairly light on traffic for the first while. Growth in Kemptville and Barrhaven has increased traffic a fair bit.

 

[W. K. Lis]

If the 401/Yonge Street interchange is redesigned competently it could go a long way in making that area less of a death trap to people walking or biking. And between the bike lanes set to be installed on Yonge next year, the Yonge redesign in North York that will hopefully get approved tomorrow, and this project we could someday have a pretty decent north-south cycling route along the Yonge corridor.

I know, that's a lot of ifs.


I think it would make even more sense economically to expand intercity rail and other highways to spread out traffic. The 401 is mainly the lifeblood because we have so few other routes. Quebec, for example, has two highways from Montreal to Quebec City. Instead of widening the 401 east of Cobourg to 6 lanes, we could expand Highway 7 between Peterborough and Carleton Place, which is a more direct route and would divert a large amount of traffic off the 401. It would also bring economic benefits to that part of eastern Ontario. Via's HFR plan has the potential to expand the modal share of trains significantly, reducing pressure on the 401 further. Similarly, substantial rail expansion to southwestern Ontario and Niagara would do the same there.


It is at some interchanges, like Highway 7 at the 404. Pedestrians are still forced to cross an on-ramp though, dodging accelerating cars. The standard MTO design for interchanges is awful for anyone who's not in a car.

 

[ARG1]

"If you are familiar with the Yonge-401 interchange you probably noticed that it isn't well suited for any modes of transportation other than cars and trucks".
I love how he says that, even though the interchange is infamous for not even being car friendly. Turning left onto Lord Seaton to access 401 East still gives me PTSD.

 

[Deadpool X]

That left turn is so whacky (and even the right turn when coming from south and entering 401 east). I don't remember seeing something like that at any other 400 series highway, let aside Yonge and 401!

Whenever I take that entry, I see the cars stopped at the stop sign at Lord Seaton road and I wonder if they can even find a gap on such a busy on ramp.

 

[ShonTron]

That left turn is so whacky (and even the right turn when coming from south and entering 401 east). I don't remember seeing something like that at any other 400 series highway, let aside Yonge and 401!

Whenever I take that entry, I see the cars stopped at the stop sign at Lord Seaton road and I wonder if they can even find a gap on such a busy on ramp.

There’s a few odd interchange configurations on 400-series highways. The Queensway in Ottawa (Highway 417) has some old-school urban American-style on and off ramps. Some of the St. Catharines exits off the QEW are unusual as well. Of course, there’s the Canal Road exit off the 400.

Given the geometry restrictions caused by the West Don ravine, something unusual was required here.