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Roads: GTA West Corridor—Highway 413

1) The London metro area has about 14 million people in 8300 sq km's, the Golden Horseshoe has about 8.2 million people in 10,000 sq km's. Regionally London is home to more people but not even twice as many as the Toronto area. Including just the city proper is useless as we're discussing regional transit.

2) You're not including the many limited access roads all over London, including some very prominent entrance/exit routes into and out of central London (Westway, Newham's Way etc.). Toronto has about 8 km's of Black Creek Drive and the end of Kingston Road in comparison.

3) My original post wasn't that one or the other is better served by this setup, only that the idea that "only North America developed in this way" was nonsense. Europe developed almost identically because their cities grew just as much in the 20th century as American cities did and they grew outwards for many of the same reasons.

1) Well if you are going to look at the 31,000 sq km of the Greater Golden Horseshoe and compare to the 1,500 sq km of Greater London... ... ... I have no words...

2) And Ontario has plenty of mid level provincial highways (hwy 9, 27, 6, 7, 26, 35/115, etc) as well as the old concession roads which tend to act a proto mid level highways. I limited my comparison to top level expressways to simplify my search/comparison. I will repeat for the third time that I support a provincial level 4 land limited access highway in this region, and reiterate that providing easy E-W travel from between Northern Peel and York Regions is important.

3) As has been shown other "world cities' have as much of if not smaller highway networks (particularly if you control for population) and that they have far more well developed transit systems. But you have your opinion and I won't discuss it further.
 
1) The London metro area has about 14 million people in 8300 sq km's, the Golden Horseshoe has about 8.2 million people in 10,000 sq km's. Regionally London is home to more people but not even twice as many as the Toronto area. Including just the city proper is useless as we're discussing regional transit.

2) You're not including the many limited access roads all over London, including some very prominent entrance/exit routes into and out of central London (Westway, Newham's Way etc.). Toronto has about 8 km's of Black Creek Drive and the end of Kingston Road in comparison.

3) My original post wasn't that one or the other is better served by this setup, only that the idea that "only North America developed in this way" was nonsense. Europe developed almost identically because their cities grew just as much in the 20th century as American cities did and they grew outwards for many of the same reasons.
1) If you look at other cities and say they have the same amount of highways, but more transit, then you advocate for more highways? I don't get it when people do that.
2) How many 12-lane collector-express highways does London have? None. The Westway starts at Paddington and ends in White City, 4 km long. Newham's Way starts east of Canary Wharf. The DVP is 15 km and the Gardiner 18.
3) London is fundamentally different from the GTA. London built out in the inter-war years, while Toronto built out after the war. Different timelines, different building styles. London built Tube to go with its suburbs, and expansion stopped with its Greenbelt. Toronto built roads to go with its suburbs, and it has yet to stop.
 
And this "30 second" saving is utter bs
Ironically, saving 30 seconds is probably generous. Historically most highways (probably all of them eventually) increase commute times for drivers. Traffic congestion is directly correlated with the number of cars on the road. This is the reason that highways with more lanes have more congestion. The increased capacity comes with slower travel times. The assumption that this new highway will only serve existing drivers is incorrect. We wont simply be diverting cars from one place to another, we will be adding new cars to an already overloaded system.
 
Ironically, saving 30 seconds is probably generous. Historically most highways (probably all of them eventually) increase commute times for drivers. Traffic congestion is directly correlated with the number of cars on the road. This is the reason that highways with more lanes have more congestion. The increased capacity comes with slower travel times. The assumption that this new highway will only serve existing drivers is incorrect. We wont simply be diverting cars from one place to another, we will be adding new cars to an already overloaded system.
Maybe for rush hour commutes yes, but the big thing about highways is its not just about rush hour commutes. The major of benefit of highways over mass transit is that you don't have to run services on highways so people are able to freely take dispersed trips. Maybe someone commuting in the morning rush hour might not see a major benefit, but someone travelling to Toronto at noon or the evening would see massive benefits. Not to mention, its possible that post COVID more and more commutes will begin to happen at more dispersed times so the benefits of highways get increased.
 
Maybe for rush hour commutes yes, but the big thing about highways is its not just about rush hour commutes. The major of benefit of highways over mass transit is that you don't have to run services on highways so people are able to freely take dispersed trips. Maybe someone commuting in the morning rush hour might not see a major benefit, but someone travelling to Toronto at noon or the evening would see massive benefits. Not to mention, its possible that post COVID more and more commutes will begin to happen at more dispersed times so the benefits of highways get increased.
Fair enough. But you're now arguing to build a multi-billion dollar highway based on the potential off peak benefits. Seems to me like the arterials we already have can get you places pretty quickly during off peak times. The government should be working to cut commute times for people. This highway is a very inefficient way to do that. This proposal is much more about land values than serious transportation.
 
Fair enough. But you're now arguing to build a multi-billion dollar highway based on the potential off peak benefits. Seems to me like the arterials we already have can get you places pretty quickly during off peak times. The government should be working to cut commute times for people. This highway is a very inefficient way to do that. This proposal is much more about land values than serious transportation.
Any infrastructure project that sees a significant benefit in how quickly people can get to Point A to Point B is a good thing. Don't forget that this highway is being made for trucks, which operate all day rush hour or not, so they will see a massive benefit with this highway. Its also helps that northern brampton is already filled with a lot of industrial use land, and this highway will also help motivate more industrial companies to move alongside the 413 instead of along the 403/401 in mississauga so that that land could be used for more redevelopment and denser housing.
 
Any infrastructure project that sees a significant benefit in how quickly people can get to Point A to Point B is a good thing.
I suppose this is our central disagreement. I don't believe the benefits will be significant (In fact I think it will be detrimental overall), and I feel that the evidence supports this claim.
 
Ironically, saving 30 seconds is probably generous. Historically most highways (probably all of them eventually) increase commute times for drivers. Traffic congestion is directly correlated with the number of cars on the road. This is the reason that highways with more lanes have more congestion. The increased capacity comes with slower travel times. The assumption that this new highway will only serve existing drivers is incorrect. We wont simply be diverting cars from one place to another, we will be adding new cars to an already overloaded system.
I'm honestly a bit tired of hearing the concept of induced demand as the means to cancel any road infrastructure project, it really isn't that simple. At a high level, yes, induced demand acts to attract additional traffic to a new, more attractive, route option when it is introduced. The fact is that this attraction also removes vehicles from an adjacent or parallel route between the origin and destination. Sure, there will be new drivers, who previously had no means of taking the highway and perhaps bought a car to begin using the new highway route, but that portion of individuals is incredibly small compared to those actually using it. The reality is that people aren't THAT mode choice flexible. If someone was using transit before, a new highway is very unlikely to give them the means to purchase a vehicle and change their travel mode. Don't get me wrong, in all these forecasting analysis, there is certainly a consideration given to mode shift, but the fact is that mode shift does not automatically fill capacity. In fact, the projects are designed to accommodate existing capacity in addition to those vehicles which are attracted from other routes, thereby relieving these other routes for other origin-destination pairs.

Now, if you're suggesting that, in the 10 to 20 years that follow the introduction of the new highway, we will see the additional capacity slowly fill up with new commuters, then that has nothing to do with induced demand. That's demand growth due to new population and new employment, and those trips will accumulate with or without the introduction of the new highway. Personally, I'd rather we have excess capacity to fill rather than be above capacity wondering where to put the demand. That simply isn't a reason to cancel the project altogether. Within 20 years of Ontario Line being built, we will be near capacity. Perhaps there's no point building that either due to the induced demand.

I love transit. I want more transit. I want the Ontario Line, I want Eglinton Crosstown to open already so we can build the east and west extensions, and I want mixed use corridors throughout our City to provide additional capacity for all modes of travelers. But I also understand the reality faced by individuals at the north end of Peel Region and York Region. I understand that Highway 401 between 410 and 400 is one of the biggest bottlenecks in the City that needs parallel corridors for additional capacity. That's why I'm in favour of this project.
 
I'm honestly a bit tired of hearing the concept of induced demand as the means to cancel any road infrastructure project, it really isn't that simple. At a high level, yes, induced demand acts to attract additional traffic to a new, more attractive, route option when it is introduced. The fact is that this attraction also removes vehicles from an adjacent or parallel route between the origin and destination. Sure, there will be new drivers, who previously had no means of taking the highway and perhaps bought a car to begin using the new highway route, but that portion of individuals is incredibly small compared to those actually using it. The reality is that people aren't THAT mode choice flexible. If someone was using transit before, a new highway is very unlikely to give them the means to purchase a vehicle and change their travel mode. Don't get me wrong, in all these forecasting analysis, there is certainly a consideration given to mode shift, but the fact is that mode shift does not automatically fill capacity. In fact, the projects are designed to accommodate existing capacity in addition to those vehicles which are attracted from other routes, thereby relieving these other routes for other origin-destination pairs.

Now, if you're suggesting that, in the 10 to 20 years that follow the introduction of the new highway, we will see the additional capacity slowly fill up with new commuters, then that has nothing to do with induced demand. That's demand growth due to new population and new employment, and those trips will accumulate with or without the introduction of the new highway. Personally, I'd rather we have excess capacity to fill rather than be above capacity wondering where to put the demand. That simply isn't a reason to cancel the project altogether. Within 20 years of Ontario Line being built, we will be near capacity. Perhaps there's no point building that either due to the induced demand.

I love transit. I want more transit. I want the Ontario Line, I want Eglinton Crosstown to open already so we can build the east and west extensions, and I want mixed use corridors throughout our City to provide additional capacity for all modes of travelers. But I also understand the reality faced by individuals at the north end of Peel Region and York Region. I understand that Highway 401 between 410 and 400 is one of the biggest bottlenecks in the City that needs parallel corridors for additional capacity. That's why I'm in favour of this project.
Look at it for the long run. As this highway is built, more housing is built in Northern Brampton, Bolton, Georgetown, etc, this highway is filled with new commuters. The thing is, no one uses their cars because they absolutely love their cars and have to. Or at least, very few people. If we build more transit lines, along major corridors, with 5 minute bus service during all hours (except late night) then we can get more people using transit. All it requires is vision and willingness to build with the plan, rather than just doing endless studies.

People choose their mode based on how fast it is, how much it costs, how convenient it is, and so on. The secret to making transit successful is to make it all of those things. For those saying "we need sprawl," no we don't. I'm not suggesting everyone live in "commie blocks" where each family has 2 bedrooms. To be fair, that is the perception that we have of high-rise in North America. This is because developers go for profit, which means maximizing units, which means small units. We don't have to do that. In both Europe and Asia, many high-rises have multi-storey units, many of them larger than the house I am writing this from. We can densify, while not forcing people to live in cramped apartments, for many years to come and without sprawl.

Many proponents will talk about growing the industrial areas and the need to serve them. We can build something like this:
1615247857322.png

Instead of building a full freeway, which will inevitably get upgraded again and again, we can build an arterial road with fewer lights. If the lesser sprawl option was chosen, it would only have to serve current residential and industrial, but it would leave much less of a scar on the landscape. In the event of a sprawl boom in the area, perhaps land can be reserved for a freeway. 🤮 Ew.

Finally, another government can come along, sell this highway, and we have another 407 where we can't use the highway to alleviate congestion. The 407 is 7.5 kilometers from the 401 at the 400, and the 407 is only 4 kilometers from the 401 at the 410. I wonder if it would not be cheaper to negotiate with the 407 consortium, to limit toll price raises, and perhaps allow some congestion. While this would diminish the idea that the 407 is an express route, perhaps there can be some sort of compensation. How much would this cost?

To conclude, this freeway has some advantages (industrial access) but the disadvantages outweigh it. The cost, the damage, and the sprawl incentive make me conclude this freeway should not be built. Instead, we need reduced tolls on the 407, a 4-lane limited access, though not full freeway, road through the area, more transit, and less sprawl. All it takes is vision and determination to get around the power of the 905.
 
I understand that Highway 401 between 410 and 400 is one of the biggest bottlenecks in the City that needs parallel corridors for additional capacity. That's why I'm in favour of this project.
The bottlenecks here are a problem. The new lanes they are adding to the 401 will, with absolute certainty, make matters worse. The 401 and 407 are such poorly managed assets that we are nowhere near the point where we need to think about building a new highway. Tolling, truck only lanes, regulating the 407, and improved transit will have a much larger impact on traffic than a new bypass highway. This was in the 2018 expert panel report that recommended against this new highway. At the end of the day it's the least effective option and it has the most detrimental side effects -- Induced demand, environmental degradation, sprawl etc.
 

Uhh 'mega highway'? This thing will only be 4-6 lanes at the most and likely tolled to deter drivers so I don't buy it. That's quite a spin. We have the internet - all the information we want at our fingertips. Doing a little research first would help but that won't generate as many likes, favorites and shares I guess.
 
Uhh 'mega highway'? This thing will only be 4-6 lanes at the most and likely tolled to deter drivers so I don't buy it. That's quite a spin. We have the internet - all the information we want at our fingertips. Doing a little research first would help but that won't generate as many likes, favorites and shares I guess.

Its 50km long; that's 200-300 lane km.

It will consume over 2,000 acres of land.
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That's well over 3x the land area of the entire Gardiner Expressway.

That's reasonably mega
 
Fair enough. But you're now arguing to build a multi-billion dollar highway based on the potential off peak benefits. Seems to me like the arterials we already have can get you places pretty quickly during off peak times.
I have to disagree, Mayfield is an awful road even with some sections getting extra lanes.

Its 50km long; that's 200-300 lane km.

It will consume over 2,000 acres of land.
.
That's well over 3x the land area of the entire Gardiner Expressway.

That's reasonably mega
Just curious, would you consider the 407E a mega highway?
 

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