Highway Expansion

[Whoaccio]

I realize that this isn't the most well liked field of transit discussion, but even the most optimistic Metrolinx projections have the majority of GTAers driving by 2030. I'm surprised the question hasn't come up as to what road expansion projects are being considered. I think this would be especially acute if Torontonians ever wanted to go ahead with pedestrianizing some streets, which I think could be a great way to improve the city. But the cars have to be put somewhere first. Even from an environmental perspective, it makes no sense to have cars idling in traffic.

Before someone jumps on me about being Moses (Robert) reincarnate and the destroyer of cities ect, I just want to set up some basic problems with highways which I feel are easily fixed. Firstly, N. American highways are bloody massive. The rights of way we construct our highways with is totally absurd. Compare the Allen Expressway with this random highway in Tokyo. Both are two lane highways, the Tokyo one probably has more drivers, but the Allan's ROW has got to be 2x the size. What were the city planners planning on putting in there? Even our subway rows are gigantic. This problem could be fixed with almost no effort whatsoever.

Secondly, highways are free. (don't pull the "there is no free lunch" argument, we all know people don't pay to use highways, that is what I am referring to). This is where that induced demand comes in. If you build anything, and provide it for free, it will induce demand. If you play around with the supply/demand graphs, and set p = 0, quantity demanded will increase. So, obviously this would produce negative effects (smog, sprawl, inactivity). It is also very easy to fix though. Just privatize the roads. That way, right wing types get the pleasure of knowing the "market" is active and lefties get road tolls. It is the most capitalistic thing to do.

So, where should we expand/build new highways? I want the 400 extension completed down to the Gardiner.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I think some North-South and East-West surface roads that have no hope of being urbanized should be designated as primary arterials, widened to 6 lanes in all places and get synchronized traffic lights at 70 km/h and interchanges at key intersections. Highway 27 is a good example of one already in place, and so is Black Creek. Rexdale Blvd, most of Birchmount (which is either industrial or runs behind residential fences), Erin Mills Parkway, Britannia, etc. Also, building a combined primary arterial and BRT system through the Finch Highway corridor would do wonders for east-west commutes.

Another idea I was thinking about is banning right turns on red at certain intersections to allow for two lane left turns onto two lane roads. One of the big causes of congestion seems to be a line up of cars backing up into the left lane to merge onto an already crowded left turn lane.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I'll try to address some of your points before the flame wars start.

First off for the ROW. You have to keep in mind, that portion of the Allen includes a triple track subway ROW running down the middle. That alone is the width of most 4 lane (2 in each direction) street. Also, note that the highway in Tokyo has frontage roads running parallel to the highway. I would include that in the Highway ROW. As such the Tokyo ROW looks to be about 35 m while the Allen ROW is roughly 80 m (less the subway ROW of about 30 m leaves 50 m). The remaining extra width might be partially due to the smaller vehicles used in Japan. However the major cause is the sloping side hills on either side of the highway, something I've never really understood. Also there might be some difference in government regulations re road design. I'm sure Japan with the little space available are more willing to squeeze roads into smaller spaces.

Take a look at how the 409 was done. Very little use of the space using sloping sides. I think if the Allen could (should have?) be designed to use sidewalls such as those used on the 409 along with frontage roads on either side of the Allen. This could shave probably 20 m off the Allen ROW and more importantly allow the implementation of side ramp interchanges and elimination of diamond interchanges. Which I feel are the bigger issue than the main ROW of a highway. People notice the highway at points where the cross the highway, the wider the crossing the less appealing the area is.

Furthermore I think Black Creek Drive should be converted to a full extension of the 400.

 

[Dan416]

403 should be extended to meet the 427 along Eastgate Parkway as it was originally intended to. The N-S section should be reassigned as 410.

The 407 section that was originally intended to be the 403 should be renamed as such, so that the 403 runs how it was supposed to.

 

[Kitsune]

427 extended to Barrie, and eventually to highway 400 as an alternate gateway into cottage country. Also, I would like to see something done with the Allen - maybe a Toronto style big dig to get to the Gardiner.

 

[Whoaccio]

427 extended to Barrie, and eventually to highway 400 as an alternate gateway into cottage country. Also, I would like to see something done with the Allen - maybe a Toronto style big dig to get to the Gardiner.

I was going to suggest just getting rid of the Allen. If we were going to do something like the big dig, it would make more sense to just have hwy 400/Black Creek Drive follow the rail corridor down to the Gardiner. The Allen is just plain idiotic. Sell the land, redevelop it (and remove stupid zoning restrictions on the areas surrounding subway stations, im looking at you Glencairn). It is a waste of a perfectly good subway.

 

[MisterF]

Extending the 400 to the Gardiner would create more problems than it would solve. It would destroy neighbourhoods and parks, or if it were in a tunnel it would be extremely expensive. It wouldn't relieve any traffic, it would only create new bottlenecks on both the Gardiner and surrounding surface streets. It would be just as congested as the DVP.

Black Creek Dr is fine the way it is. It gradually goes from a freeway to a city street, which reduces the bottleneck effect. Kingston Road is similar. Most of the motorways going into London enter the city in a similar way. Speaking of London, it's a major city that survives just fine with zero freeways into its core. Surely Toronto can make do with two. What's needed is selectively improving bottlenecks, like getting rid of the Dufferin St jog or extending Front St to the Gardiner. And, obviously, massively expanding transit as per the Metrolinx plan. Express rail can do a lot more to increase mobility in the GTA than building new highways.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

403 should be extended to meet the 427 along Eastgate Parkway as it was originally intended to. The N-S section should be reassigned as 410.

The 407 section that was originally intended to be the 403 should be renamed as such, so that the 403 runs how it was supposed to.

I think I love you! That's exactly what I think everytime I look at the travesty that is the 427/401/403/407 sequence. Hell throw the 409 in there as well.

Ideally the 403 gets it's intended routing back (To hell with the 407 consortium they might own the highway but they can't dictate our routings) and is extended to meet the 427. Pie in the sky would make a tunnel under the airport connecting it to the 409. The 410 gets built to real highway standards between the 401 and 403, including an interchange for Eglinton/403 at the south end.

The 427 is one spot that I don't agree with. I don't think it should head west and meet with the 400. I think it should stay on it's NW routing and head somewhere between Wasaga and Collingwood terminating at hwy 26.

 

[ShonTron]

I think some North-South and East-West surface roads that have no hope of being urbanized should be designated as primary arterials, widened to 6 lanes in all places and get synchronized traffic lights at 70 km/h and interchanges at key intersections. Highway 27 is a good example of one already in place, and so is Black Creek. Rexdale Blvd, most of Birchmount (which is either industrial or runs behind residential fences), Erin Mills Parkway, Britannia, etc. Also, building a combined primary arterial and BRT system through the Finch Highway corridor would do wonders for east-west commutes.

Has the dry desert air gone to your head? Birchmount is hardly a candidate I would suggest (no 401 connection, actually relatively urban in parts, and no backyards on the street south of Ellesmere), but Rexdale isn't a bad example, and Highway 27 could be optimized better. Kennedy might be a better choice. A network of few priority arterials (building on routes like Kingston) isn't a bad idea, I just worry about the urban and pedestrian realm. It is smarter than new highway construction.

Another idea I was thinking about is banning right turns on red at certain intersections to allow for two lane left turns onto two lane roads. One of the big causes of congestion seems to be a line up of cars backing up into the left lane to merge onto an already crowded left turn lane.

Oh my. What I hated about Peel Region was their love with dual left turn lanes, which with very few exceptions, are not present in Toronto. They really make an intersection bad in places, especially crossing nine-lane streets, even if it to change buses, which is what people do, even in oppressively suburban 416 intersections.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^ I hope you mean Kennedy in Peel, not Scarborough/Markham (which is already a 6-lane parking lot south of the 401).

 

[ShonTron]

If it means ripping down the Bad Boy for one of Hipster Duck's expressway (not freeway, going by Caltrans definitions) ramps for a Lawrence mini-interchange, then why not?

I'd also give it the MDOT treatment and add some Michigan Lefts. Let's go all out and turn Kennedy into Telegraph Road. It'd get rid of left turn lane back ups!

 

[indense]

Sorry to go off topic, but if you follow that Tokyo highway up, you arrive at Roppongi Hills, then a little further to Midtown Tower where I work (highway is to the right of the screen). If you follow it down instead, you come to this cool playing field built over the highway. A little further, the highway runs right over top of Shibuya Station. Scroll to the left for the famous scramble crossing. Keep going down and you find the world's largest off ramp under construction. This thing is insane. I haven't really figured the whole thing out yet. There are multiple levels - all enclosed. When I first walked by I thought that it was a sports stadium under construction.

This highway is mostly raised above ground with 4 - 6 lanes running underneath but sometimes it comes down to ground level.

Sorry for the off topic again - I just wanted to play tour guide.

 

[dunkalunk]

The current terminus of Allen Road at Eglinton makes little if any sense. An alternative to completely removing the it would be to extend it and create limited access interchanges at St. Clair and Bathurst. this solution however, would require much tunnelling or some acquisition of property. I made a google map to demonstrate what I envision: Link

Also, any new fully separated highways built should be subject to toll simillar to the 407. The Gardiner should also be tolled

 

[GTS]

Gardiner idea

I read another thread on Skyscraper City called 'Tearing down the Gardiner' and it had a real good idea, that the more I thought about it the more sense it makes.

This isn't exactly highway expansion but it might help goods and people move more efficiently through Toronto. The idea was to tear down the elevated portion and have it become just a 4-lane road(and 5-lane where their is room) in each direction- it would basically be a widened Lakeshore Rd.. It would have some buried portions so it wouldn't interfere too much with North/ South bound traffic. The speeds could be 60k/hr so that the flow of traffic wouldn't be such a hazard at street level. So from the DVP in the east to the Ex in the west we would have a wide, ground level blvd. moving lots of people in and out of the core at a faster rate then the present day elevated Gardiner does.

Once this new ground level rd. reaches the Ex it would become a highway again with appropriate speeds. This would make the Toronto waterfront area much more aesthetically pleasing and pedestrian friendly. The surviving portion of the Gardiner from the Ex to the 427/QEW could be sold to the province so that the Gardiner becomes a natural extension of the QEW and would be maintained under that funding umbrella. I am not sure but I think the QEW is part of the 400 series highways and all that funding? This way the city will have more money to pump into public transit to take the load off of our highways.

 

[lordmandeep]

Really all we can do is to extend the 410, 427 and 404 more northward.

I think building anymore highways in Toronto will be a bad idea.