Highway 401 Transit and Auto Tunnel

[DSCToronto]

Honestly I think people continue to overplay how "impossible" this is. It's ambitious for sure, but there is lots of global precedent and from a cost perspective Ford's subways program / GO expansion is far larger in scope and costs.

Now - is it worth the money it will cost and can that money be spent better elsewhere? That's a better question. I just don't think we should dismiss it as "financially impossible".

Don't get distracted from all the other stuff - that's what Ford wants!

 

[Mihairokov]

WestConnex - Linkt

When complete, WestConnex will provide motorists with a continuous, 33km traffic-light free motorway network, with connections for future projects linking the north shore and northern beaches, Sydney Airport and the southern suburbs. Find out more.

www.westconnex.com.au

Westconnex is actually a far more complex project than the 401 tunnel would be. The 401 has a 100+m wide ROW with minimal utility conflicts - it would actually be relatively simple to tunnel under.

Westconnex is built under existing suburbs and neighbourhoods, no? They weren't mimicking the length of a surface-level higher for its length.

 

[micheal_can]

The Globe's latest take on this:

Ford proposes three-level tunnel under Highway 401, feasibility study not started

His plan is to have a 19.5-metre-wide, three-level tunnel, with one level going eastbound, one for westbound traffic and a bottom level for transit

www.theglobeandmail.com

The only detail of note is limited info as to width and depth:

View attachment 671692

Looking at the existing 401 in Toronto, the MTO designs to a 3.5M wide lane of traffic. and 3M paved shoulders

My read of a 19.5M would be 4 lanes per direction plus shoulders.

The minimum vertical clearance on the 401 is 5M (pavement surface to below the girder of an overpass)

Metrolinx requires 7M above top-of-rail. Rail base is likely in the range of 0.4M plus the rail height for about 0.5M

Allowing some margin of error, excluding slabs, below, between and above, you get a required depth in the range of 18M

I'm not sure how thick the slab between levels would be, but general recommendations suggest 400mm for bored tunnel and 900mm for cut and cover.

Looking at the North Connex project in Australia, tunnel depth ranges from 60M to 90M while West Connex is in the 35M to 40M range.

However, these seem to be single-level.

Three distinct levels would require substantial depth.

Given the width of the highway here, the choice to go only 19.5M wide and much deeper is suggestive of a cut and cover construction and trying to limit how much highway you close at any one time.

The river crossing issues here would be substantial.

I heard it on the news and from his own mouth "one lane each way". WTF? I know he may not have meant that, but that just ads to the ridiculous of this project.

The 'study' doesn't even report out til February '27.

That's over 18 months away.

Even in the improbable event that the study were favourable to the project, it would only then initiate an Environmental Assessment, which done at tremendous speed wouldn't report out before mid 2028. Only then can get to actual design, never mind construction.

This isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Aside from which, as someone who has some familiarity with the MTO's unfunded plans..........this is way down that list. (not on it)

Just enough time for a new government to come in and kill it.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Given the width of the tunnel it'll be more than 1 lane. a 19.5m diameter tunnel should be able to fit 3 lanes each way, if not 4.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Westconnex is built under existing suburbs and neighbourhoods, no? They weren't mimicking the length of a surface-level higher for its length.

Yes - which is actually a far more complex condition as it has to dodge sub-surface utilities constantly, deal with complex ownership structures above, weave exit ramps into existing areas..

MTO would have a lot more space to work with. The 401 has a massive ROW with relatively minimal utility crossings and plenty of space to add on and off ramps.

Roads at the end of the day are very simple things. Basically layers of gravel and asphalt. 3 meters below the 401 and you are basically free of anything and everything involved with the highway. It's also why highway projects tend to be a lot cheaper than many people think they will be, especially compared to transit projects.. They need a lot more land ($$$) but actual construction costs are a fraction of transit lines, generally, since they are relatively simple pieces of infrastructure.

 

[micheal_can]

Given the width of the tunnel it'll be more than 1 lane. a 19.5m diameter tunnel should be able to fit 3 lanes each way, if not 4.

My point was that he cannot even communicate what he envisions. I almost don't think he thinks this is a serious thing.

 

[lenaitch]

Yes - which is actually a far more complex condition as it has to dodge sub-surface utilities constantly, deal with complex ownership structures above, weave exit ramps into existing areas..

MTO would have a lot more space to work with. The 401 has a massive ROW with relatively minimal utility crossings and plenty of space to add on and off ramps.

Roads at the end of the day are very simple things. Basically layers of gravel and asphalt. 3 meters below the 401 and you are basically free of anything and everything involved with the highway. It's also why highway projects tend to be a lot cheaper than many people think they will be, especially compared to transit projects.. They need a lot more land ($$$) but actual construction costs are a fraction of transit lines, generally, since they are relatively simple pieces of infrastructure.

I'd be interested to see the vision for river crossings. I would argue the "plenty of space" for ramps but they aren't talking (I won't use the word 'planning') about many access points anyway. Adding some form of transit at the bottom assumes stations, requiring accessibility.

Highways might be comparatively cheaper than transit, but factors such as ventilation, fire suppression, etc. will add to the complexity.

 

[Bordercollie]

It would make sense to build BRT lanes using the shoulder.

Build stations at major streets.

Keep using Pickering GO, STC, Sheppard or York Mills, Yorkdale, Keele ST, renforth? And something around Dixie and Hurontario.

 

[lenaitch]

It would make sense to build BRT lanes using the shoulder.

Build stations at major streets.

Keep using Pickering GO, STC, Sheppard or York Mills, Yorkdale, Keele ST, renforth? And something around Dixie and Hurontario.

One problem with using the shoulders is they would be needed for refuge in case of a breakdown or collision.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I'd be interested to see the vision for river crossings. I would argue the "plenty of space" for ramps but they aren't talking (I won't use the word 'planning') about many access points anyway. Adding some form of transit at the bottom assumes stations, requiring accessibility.

Highways might be comparatively cheaper than transit, but factors such as ventilation, fire suppression, etc. will add to the complexity.

yes - this will be very expensive for a roads project. I was talking more generally about surface roads.

The transit aspect of this is likely going to drive a lot of costs and inflate the overall budget quite a lot.

I'm firmly in a "lets see what they want to do" still stage with this whole thing. I have doubts about how the province will finance it without tolls, but we ultimately have very limited information on the project scope in the first place still.

 

[PL1]

I cannot believe we're 37 pages into discussion of this fantasy/fever dream.

 

[micheal_can]

I cannot believe we're 37 pages into discussion of this fantasy/fever dream.

It is what happens when a crazy person is elected.....

 

[reaperexpress]

We're all playing into Ford's hand by seriously talking about the absurd proposal that nobody - including Ford - has any intention of actually building. Ford knows how to stay in headlines in the way he wants - diverting media attention from the other things he'd like them to ignore. We saw this with the Niagara and London peak-period GO services, adding an impractical temporary service with zero infrastructure to distract from other cuts to GO projects. We saw it with the bike lane items in Bill 212, which created sufficient outrage among progressive advocates to distract them from the vast majority of that bill that was eliminating oversight and accountability for the Highway 413 project.

 

[Haljackey]

It is what happens when a crazy person is elected.....

Is it crazy? We gave Douggie 3 majority wins. Crazy might be one win, sure, but 3 times? We're worse than 'Murica who elected Trump twice.

The 401 tunnel was a topic during the latest election too. There are people out there that voted for him because of this project. While we all have our doubts it will ever happen in any capacity, he did campaign on it and it worked.

 

[afransen]

Does anyone (even Ford?) really think this will ever be built? Of course, it is 'possible' to build it from an engineering perspective (though installing off and on ramps would certainly be 'challenging as they would need to be very long due to depth) but I doubt it is financially possible and certainly not politically possible. Ford likes to dangle bright shiny objects in front of his audience so we do not see the grubby things happening 'off camera'. It used to be ferris wheels, now it's tunnels. When he brings out a new 'object' we are well advised to look elsewhere!

Agreed. This seems to be a Trumpian "flooding the zone" tactic to distract the media/public from serious matters.