Allandale25
Senior Member
#LifeGoals
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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx
- Thread starter innsertnamehere
- Start date
afransen
Senior Member
That's pretty shocking! I can't imagine a senior leader saying something like that. I guess he was already checked out, but still, that is incredibly demoralizing.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
I think the sources seem to consistently indicate that DB wasn't very good at handling Metrolinx's resistance to change. However, given that the contract that they were offered by Metrolinx was explicitly for the purpose of making drastic changes to the network, DB could reasonably have assumed that Metrolinx would support them in doing that.
It goes without saying that to cost-effectively run fast and frequent service that Metrolinx requested, we would need:
- A modern signalling system with automatic train protection (e.g. ETCS)
- More cost-efficient operating practices (e.g. 1-person operation + CSA, instead of 2+CSA currently)
- Faster, lighter and more efficient trains (e.g. approve EU trains via Alternative Compliance like the US already does)
- Electrification of the core network.
All of the above require regulatory changes at the organizational, provincial and/or national level. Metrolinx had already mentioned all of these items before DB was brought on board, so it is reasonable for DB to have assumed that Metrolinx would be supporting them in getting the necessary regulations changed to enable those items to be implemented. But based on the Trillium article, GO Rail operations people were set loose on DB, fighting against them rather than working together to create modernised operating practices for GO and propose modernised regulations to Transport Canada.
Sure, we can run heavy American diesel trains every 15 minutes (and we already do so on Lakeshore West, UP Express and Lakeshore East), but the operating cost of those trains is so much higher than a light electric train with a single operator that it will be a financial (and therefore political) challenge to maintain attractive frequencies.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
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Urban Sky
Senior Member
What actually was the exact mandate for ONxpress on the O&M contract for OOI (or what infomation is publicly available on this topic)? Given that the O&M contract was signed some 2 years after the two original contracts and DB seems to not have been involved with these other two contracts, who were all these DB people I kept bumping into during 2021/22 when working in the offices shared by Metrolinx and ONxpress…?
crs1026
Superstar
The four initial bidders were announced May 30 2019 and bids only closed on Nov 30, 2022. So I imagine there was lots of work done on site by the bidders during that timeframe, including access to whatever "data room" facilities were set up to inform the bids.
PS the links above point to general scope and intended timing for the project. Note how even those timelines weren't met. The original RFQ was in 2018....seven years ago. That's how long it took for this project to stall out.
- Paul
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Urban Sky
Senior Member
From the May 2019 announcement:
The scope of the On Corridor Works project includes:
From the second document Paul linked:
• On November 30, bids closed on the GO Expansion On-Corridor Works package following a multi-year procurement process. The successful proponent team will be responsible for delivering 15-minute-or-better, all-day service on our core lines. This works package includes implementing overhead electrification, upgrading train control systems, and expanding tracks and structures along the corridors to allow for over 6,000 weekly train trips. Two proponent teams, EnTransit and ONxpress Transportation Partners, have submitted their proposals. Each team brings together international firms with extensive experience building and running frequent electric regional rail networks outside North America with local partners. Infrastructure Ontario and Metrolinx will evaluate the proposals and announce the winning team in Spring 2022. There will be a 24-month development phase after the contract is awarded, where Metrolinx and the successful proponent will work collaboratively on design, early investigations, schedule optimization, and key initial construction work.
Construction is expected to start in late 2022 or early 2023.
The scope of the On Corridor Works project includes:
- Operation of train services including train driving
- Timetable planning, train control and dispatch for all operators across the GO-owned rail network
- Design, build, finance, integration, maintenance, rehabilitation or renewal of the railway corridor (civil infrastructure, tracks, systems, signaling, rolling stock, etc.)
- Refurbishment, maintenance, servicing and cleaning of all rolling stock and procurement of new rolling stock
- Construction of new maintenance and train storage and/or layover facilities
- Reconstruction of Union Station track and platforms
- Compliance with Metrolinx safety, security and emergency management policies
From the second document Paul linked:
• On November 30, bids closed on the GO Expansion On-Corridor Works package following a multi-year procurement process. The successful proponent team will be responsible for delivering 15-minute-or-better, all-day service on our core lines. This works package includes implementing overhead electrification, upgrading train control systems, and expanding tracks and structures along the corridors to allow for over 6,000 weekly train trips. Two proponent teams, EnTransit and ONxpress Transportation Partners, have submitted their proposals. Each team brings together international firms with extensive experience building and running frequent electric regional rail networks outside North America with local partners. Infrastructure Ontario and Metrolinx will evaluate the proposals and announce the winning team in Spring 2022. There will be a 24-month development phase after the contract is awarded, where Metrolinx and the successful proponent will work collaboratively on design, early investigations, schedule optimization, and key initial construction work.
Construction is expected to start in late 2022 or early 2023.
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crs1026
Superstar
^Notice as well the reference to 6000 weekly train trips
- Paul
- Paul
reaperexpress
Senior Member
The challenge with GO Expansion is that everything is dependant on everything else. So even if they're just the train operating company, DB's staffing and scheduling assumptions depend on the infrastructure.
For example, the number of staff they need for a given frequency is strongly affected by whether there are 1 or 2 locomotive engineers at the head of each train. And that in turn is affected by whether ATP (such as ETCS) is installed along the route.
The round trip times (and therefore the staff/fleet requirements for a given frequency) are also affected by the presence/absence of electrification, and track speed improvements.
Similarly, procuring rolling stock is heavily affected by the regulations in place. With the current archaic Transport Canada regulations, we would need to convince a manufacturer to develop electric trains for the Canadian market. But Metrolinx were to convince Transport Canada to introduce Alternative Compliance like the US FRA did, DB could have picked from pretty much any existing off-the-shelf train in the EU, reducing procurement costs and probably improving train performance.
Leaving a gap in electrification at Union would mean that every train that DB acquires for the network needs to be a dual-mode battery train, increasing the train purchase/maintenance cost and reducing the power-to-weight ratio.
DB's operating cost for a given service frequency would increased if Metrolinx's de-scopes items such as:
- Track speed improvements
- Electrification on lines other than Lakeshore
- Operating Rule updates to enable single-person operation under ETCS,
- Transport Canada equipment regulation updates.
Northern Light
Superstar
By my math, from a passenger perspective, every 15m service at a given station (from one corridor's service), across an 18-hour service span daily, is 1,008 weekly trips.
So, for the principle 4 corridors (K-W, Barrie, Lakeshore, Stouffville) (we know Milton wasn't included)......(not sure what the R-H requirement was)....
That would be 4,032 weekly trips.
If we add 11 Lakeshore Express runs x 2 or 22 daily, we get another 110.for 4,142.
Milton was to peak at 11 trains each way per day, so that's another 110 for 4,252, just to fill this out I'll assume 2-way hourly on R-H. That's 252 runs, which brings us to 4,504.
Doubtless others among you would do the math better than I; but assuming that's close, the ambition of 6,000 would quite substantial.
~1,500 extra runs would be equal to 7'30 service on Lakeshore 18 hours per day, and 30M service 24/7
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crs1026
Superstar
Being charitable, I might interpret the 6,000 figure as a design spec for long term capacity, and not what it would operate in the first few years.
But the impact of that scope is enormous. 6,000 trips per week with a 2-person loco crew is hugely different in labour needs compared to the same number of trips with one person in the cab. If DB assumed they could move to one person crews immediately, they had no hope of staying on track. If ML encouraged them to think that was possible, that was a gross fib. And if DB understood so little about the current situation to believe that claim, they were naive - or didn't do enough research. The training effort to get the current workforce to even 6,000 one-person loco crewing would be a fairly easy number to calculate....
- Paul
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Okay, so does/did ONxpress assume any revenue or costs risks? Because in that case, their insistence on sweeping changes in the archaic regulatory environment would be inevitable…
Sauga89
Active Member
Does that include UP express? 15 minute service to the airport would add another 1,000 trips.
Northern Light
Superstar
I did not include UP in the math above.
Thaboss
Active Member
Yes. You play the game you're handed not the one you wish you had and in that respect ontarios voters did their thing and handed ford a majority
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