U
unimaginative2
Guest
Initally, Matrix was overwhelmingly Chinese. Today, it's much more mixed with the Chinese population being merely a substantial minority.
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B
bengaijin
Guest
I think that adma is quite astute to note that the Chinatown Centre and Dragon City are disproportionately feeling the crunch of declining business. They suffer from a couple of problems that distinguish them from the other businesses in the neighbourhood.
Problem 1: Modeled as malls, these spaces are disconnected from the circulation of the street and require the shopper to in effect leave the city to gain entrance. This is a leap of faith that the average passer-by or infrequent shopper might be unwilling to take; the street, with all its mess and bustle, is familiarly public. There is more than enough out there to hold the attention of the casual shopper. These spaces are internally coherent (at least theoretically) destinations, not part of the logic of the street corridor. As places to go TO as opposed to THROUGH they are especially hard-pressed to compete with their suburban counterparts who can serve vast catchment areas with their parking lots.
Problem 2: They were conceived as a step in the "upscaling" of Chinatown that failed to predict the changing geography of the Chinese community in Toronto. They were built on the assumption that Chinatown would remain THE Chinatown, that the ever-more prosperous immigrants of the mid-20th century HK/Taiwan wave would still consider Spadina/Dundas to be the hub of their commercial and cultural lives. This ultimately proved wrong. They moved north and founded new cultural/commercial districts nearer to their new homes to cater to their more upscale shopping habits. The bulk of the 1990s HK wave moved to these communities as well. They were much more affluent than their predecessors (and their mainland contemporaries), and better equipped from the start to afford the north american luxuries that the earlier HK wave had to build up to (big house, big lawn, big car, big mall). These people had no connection to the Spadina Chinatown and little reason to feel an allegiance to it. Quite reasonably they invested in the community closer to them, making it the best concentration of services for their particular demographic.
Chinatown was again left to the locals, who are still predominantly poor and working-class new immigrants - those mainland contemporaries I previously mentioned and the growing vietnamese demographic. I think to some extent the "improvement" of Chinatown was a demographic blip where the chinese commercial dispersal had not caught up with the community's residential dispersal across the GTA. For a while, the Spadina Chinatown was THE Chinatown, but this situation was unsustainable as other concentrations of Chinese immigrants created their own critical mass. Much of the declining businesses, including the two main malls and the glut of nearly empty restaurants are leftovers from those days when Spadina had an unchallenged regional pull.
I would argue that Chinatown is returning to its old role as an affordable and supportive neighbourhood for new immigrants after an anomolous phase as the sole regional draw for a dispersed ethnic community. The food markets and banks and pastry shops are bustling and the streets are packed with locals on their day-to-day business. Things are changing now as always, and will likely change more as CityPlace establishes itself with its more upmarket and young Asian demographic and the new BIA makes its mark, but any claims of Chinatown's death, as a commercial district or as an ethnic hub, to me seem highly exaggerated.
Problem 1: Modeled as malls, these spaces are disconnected from the circulation of the street and require the shopper to in effect leave the city to gain entrance. This is a leap of faith that the average passer-by or infrequent shopper might be unwilling to take; the street, with all its mess and bustle, is familiarly public. There is more than enough out there to hold the attention of the casual shopper. These spaces are internally coherent (at least theoretically) destinations, not part of the logic of the street corridor. As places to go TO as opposed to THROUGH they are especially hard-pressed to compete with their suburban counterparts who can serve vast catchment areas with their parking lots.
Problem 2: They were conceived as a step in the "upscaling" of Chinatown that failed to predict the changing geography of the Chinese community in Toronto. They were built on the assumption that Chinatown would remain THE Chinatown, that the ever-more prosperous immigrants of the mid-20th century HK/Taiwan wave would still consider Spadina/Dundas to be the hub of their commercial and cultural lives. This ultimately proved wrong. They moved north and founded new cultural/commercial districts nearer to their new homes to cater to their more upscale shopping habits. The bulk of the 1990s HK wave moved to these communities as well. They were much more affluent than their predecessors (and their mainland contemporaries), and better equipped from the start to afford the north american luxuries that the earlier HK wave had to build up to (big house, big lawn, big car, big mall). These people had no connection to the Spadina Chinatown and little reason to feel an allegiance to it. Quite reasonably they invested in the community closer to them, making it the best concentration of services for their particular demographic.
Chinatown was again left to the locals, who are still predominantly poor and working-class new immigrants - those mainland contemporaries I previously mentioned and the growing vietnamese demographic. I think to some extent the "improvement" of Chinatown was a demographic blip where the chinese commercial dispersal had not caught up with the community's residential dispersal across the GTA. For a while, the Spadina Chinatown was THE Chinatown, but this situation was unsustainable as other concentrations of Chinese immigrants created their own critical mass. Much of the declining businesses, including the two main malls and the glut of nearly empty restaurants are leftovers from those days when Spadina had an unchallenged regional pull.
I would argue that Chinatown is returning to its old role as an affordable and supportive neighbourhood for new immigrants after an anomolous phase as the sole regional draw for a dispersed ethnic community. The food markets and banks and pastry shops are bustling and the streets are packed with locals on their day-to-day business. Things are changing now as always, and will likely change more as CityPlace establishes itself with its more upmarket and young Asian demographic and the new BIA makes its mark, but any claims of Chinatown's death, as a commercial district or as an ethnic hub, to me seem highly exaggerated.
O
Ontarian1976
Guest
I work just south of Chinatown, and pass through it twice a day on the streetcar. It is still very lively. It's so busy on Saturday's that I'd recommend if you're driving down to the highway from the northern part of downtown to avoid it at all costs. Even going out of your way to take Bathurst is a better option.
What the area does need are restaurants that are kept to higher standards of cleanliness, as well as the Chinatown Center Mall, as mentioned. That place is so disgusting, I won't even step foot in it despite the fact that it's a 2-minute walk and I love Chinese food. I'd prefer if they tore the whole place down and replaced it with something else.
BTW, whoever mentioned the Roxy nightclub, it was quite a bit further south (near King Street), and has since closed (I think a residential development is going there).
What the area does need are restaurants that are kept to higher standards of cleanliness, as well as the Chinatown Center Mall, as mentioned. That place is so disgusting, I won't even step foot in it despite the fact that it's a 2-minute walk and I love Chinese food. I'd prefer if they tore the whole place down and replaced it with something else.
BTW, whoever mentioned the Roxy nightclub, it was quite a bit further south (near King Street), and has since closed (I think a residential development is going there).
B
bengaijin
Guest
As another note:
I think that this is a perfect time for Chinatown to engage in a little bit of introspection. The "sole regional hub" phase is over, but the neighbourhood has not fully pushed past it. There are new realities and new opportunities, and I for one would celebrate the creation of a BIA focused on Chinatown's future.
As other people have mentioned, downtown is generally more densely populated now than a decade ago, and there must be ways to tap into that greater pedestrian mass, both Chinese and non-Chinese.
Let's wish them (the BIA) the best of luck and success (little porcelain cat with both paws up) because Chinatown is one of downtown Toronto's greatest assets even in its current iteration, and an improved relationship with our ever-changing downtown would be to the benefit of all of us.
I think that this is a perfect time for Chinatown to engage in a little bit of introspection. The "sole regional hub" phase is over, but the neighbourhood has not fully pushed past it. There are new realities and new opportunities, and I for one would celebrate the creation of a BIA focused on Chinatown's future.
As other people have mentioned, downtown is generally more densely populated now than a decade ago, and there must be ways to tap into that greater pedestrian mass, both Chinese and non-Chinese.
Let's wish them (the BIA) the best of luck and success (little porcelain cat with both paws up) because Chinatown is one of downtown Toronto's greatest assets even in its current iteration, and an improved relationship with our ever-changing downtown would be to the benefit of all of us.
S
SD2
Guest
I'd never figure Chinatown was dying after all the time I've spent there recently. It's always packed...I was shopping at one of their grocery stores a few weeks back and the place was rammed. Most of the restaurants seem to be doing fairly well too.
E
esplanade guy
Guest
I went shopping last saturday in Chinatown with a friend from North York. We drove to the underground parking lot on Dundas, it was full, so we headed to the one in Kensington Market, it was also full, we drove around the smaller streets near there, they were all full. Hell, we even tried an underground parking lot in a commercial building and it was full, so if people consider this dying, I would hate to see what thriving is!
A
adma
Guest
Instead of say like Calgary where theres one Chinatown downtown, and thats it.
I haven't been to Calgary in a decade, but...would that still be the case? Heck, was that even so purely the case a decade ago? (IIRC the heart of Chinatown was that little pocket E of Eau Claire Market--pretty puny stuff for a big city like Calgary.) And there were other Asian groceries scattered about the E side of downtown; but this being Calgary and the Prairies, it was more automobile-scaled anyway--albeit in more of an early-c20 "East York" than "Markham" fashion. Anyway, I'd certainly imagine the Markham/Richmond/Surrey-izing of retail in Calgary's heavily Asian NE suburbs, to the point where *they* don't need to go to Chinatown anymore...
Anyone who's been to Calgary lately and "knows" its Chinatown(s?), please remind me.
A
adma
Guest
J
justto
Guest
i can't believe nobody mention this. video killed chinatown. the 3 movie theatres that have been empty for years. only one has been re cylce as an after hours club (boa). I am not sure what happened to the one beside royal bank and the one on the ground floor of a condo near queen.
W
wyliepoon
Guest
Welcome to the forum, justto.
I'm afraid that is only an oversimplification of the problem facing Chinatown. Entertainment is not a really big part of Chinatown compared to other aspects like food and groceries, so video isn't the only "killer", if we can even talk about a "killer". By the way there are still a couple of stores in Chinatown that sells/rents videos/DVDs/CDs, and I'm sure some people (especially Chinese students) flock to Chinatown for those.
Chinese cinemas are also gone in the suburbs. The cinema at Market Village is now a semi-department store selling Japanese goods.
video killed chinatown.
I'm afraid that is only an oversimplification of the problem facing Chinatown. Entertainment is not a really big part of Chinatown compared to other aspects like food and groceries, so video isn't the only "killer", if we can even talk about a "killer". By the way there are still a couple of stores in Chinatown that sells/rents videos/DVDs/CDs, and I'm sure some people (especially Chinese students) flock to Chinatown for those.
Chinese cinemas are also gone in the suburbs. The cinema at Market Village is now a semi-department store selling Japanese goods.
J
justto
Guest
yes, video killed chinatown is an oversimplicfication. ... 2 more theatre was gone too on College st.
i agreed with many that said chinatown is still thriving particularly the spadina corridor but on Dundas from spadina to beveley, many storefront sits empty and strugling. The 2 mid rise commercial is half empty. Bank moved out, restaurauts closed. May be its time to turn it to còndo or turn it to artist lofts, since the location is ideal....... so close to AGO
i agreed with many that said chinatown is still thriving particularly the spadina corridor but on Dundas from spadina to beveley, many storefront sits empty and strugling. The 2 mid rise commercial is half empty. Bank moved out, restaurauts closed. May be its time to turn it to còndo or turn it to artist lofts, since the location is ideal....... so close to AGO
C
Canuck 36
Guest
Beat me to the news Adma.
www.paved.ca/paved/2006/03/the_death_and_b.html
Death and birth of mediocre Toronto streets
A two-page spread in the Sunday Star juxtaposed a feature on the renewal of Ossington Ave. with a story about the sorry state of Spadina Ave.'s Chinatown. Based on threads at the Urban Toronto forum, the dead zone (links to this thread) inspires considerably more conversation than one that's coming alive (Links to Ossington Thread). The retail action for the Chinese community has shifted to the Markham malls around Kennedy Rd. and Steeles Ave., but suggestions that their downtown predecessors are paying rent in a wasteland might be a tad hyperbolic. Yet, the death knell for the neighbourhood was sounding before the SARS outbreak did a number on its tourism potential, and the combination of the streetcar right-of-way and enclosed Chinatown Centre help discourage any future effort to renew the street's vitality. However, just because it transformed from a Jewish to Chinese strip through the 1970s - as chronicled in Rosemary Donegan's 1985 book (pictured) - is the area destined to belong to a specific ethnic group forever? James Bow blogs wistfully about the Spadina he knew growing up, which makes him feel old - but given how he moved away, how can the kids of the original restaurant owners be expected to remain on the dusty downtown trail? The future of Ossington is deemed more promising, with a more diverse community turning the street into a slightly more eccentric adjunct of West Queen West, apparently to the delight of those Portuguese and Vietnamese business owners embracing an influx of what they've facetiously dubbed "The Canadians". This new era along Ossington has been chronicled in two spurts over the past year by writer Hal Niedzviecki at Reading Toronto, during which time he's expressed angst and anxiety over this so-called gentrification, while ultimately gloating about about how he bought a cheap house on these wrong side of the tracks right before it was worth anything.
www.paved.ca/paved/2006/03/the_death_and_b.html
Death and birth of mediocre Toronto streets
A two-page spread in the Sunday Star juxtaposed a feature on the renewal of Ossington Ave. with a story about the sorry state of Spadina Ave.'s Chinatown. Based on threads at the Urban Toronto forum, the dead zone (links to this thread) inspires considerably more conversation than one that's coming alive (Links to Ossington Thread). The retail action for the Chinese community has shifted to the Markham malls around Kennedy Rd. and Steeles Ave., but suggestions that their downtown predecessors are paying rent in a wasteland might be a tad hyperbolic. Yet, the death knell for the neighbourhood was sounding before the SARS outbreak did a number on its tourism potential, and the combination of the streetcar right-of-way and enclosed Chinatown Centre help discourage any future effort to renew the street's vitality. However, just because it transformed from a Jewish to Chinese strip through the 1970s - as chronicled in Rosemary Donegan's 1985 book (pictured) - is the area destined to belong to a specific ethnic group forever? James Bow blogs wistfully about the Spadina he knew growing up, which makes him feel old - but given how he moved away, how can the kids of the original restaurant owners be expected to remain on the dusty downtown trail? The future of Ossington is deemed more promising, with a more diverse community turning the street into a slightly more eccentric adjunct of West Queen West, apparently to the delight of those Portuguese and Vietnamese business owners embracing an influx of what they've facetiously dubbed "The Canadians". This new era along Ossington has been chronicled in two spurts over the past year by writer Hal Niedzviecki at Reading Toronto, during which time he's expressed angst and anxiety over this so-called gentrification, while ultimately gloating about about how he bought a cheap house on these wrong side of the tracks right before it was worth anything.
A
adma
Guest
Though as I think of it, miketoronto *does* have a point re Calgary (or Vancouver, or Montreal et al)--though as usual, it's almost by accident. But it's not so much the retail idea of Chinatown, as the ceremonial--that is, the sense of the Chinatown as a centre of indigenous culture. With gates, gardens, all such trappings.
The weird thing about the Dundas-Spadina Chinatown that nobody's mentioned is that over its decades of development, it's been so thoroughly mercenary. It's been all about the retail, the private enterprise...and nobody, no benevolent souls, thought of incorporating a "cultural" element. With that in mind, no wonder there's that sense of doldrums. (Interestingly, there's been more effort t/w that end at the Broadview/Gerrard Chinatown.)
The weird thing about the Dundas-Spadina Chinatown that nobody's mentioned is that over its decades of development, it's been so thoroughly mercenary. It's been all about the retail, the private enterprise...and nobody, no benevolent souls, thought of incorporating a "cultural" element. With that in mind, no wonder there's that sense of doldrums. (Interestingly, there's been more effort t/w that end at the Broadview/Gerrard Chinatown.)
W
wyliepoon
Guest
The weird thing about the Dundas-Spadina Chinatown that nobody's mentioned is that over its decades of development, it's been so thoroughly mercenary. It's been all about the retail, the private enterprise...and nobody, no benevolent souls, thought of incorporating a "cultural" element.
Even Chinatown East can't outdo suburban Chinese malls in trying to promote Chinese culture. Pacific Mall has an indoor Chinese "bazaar" designed in Chinese architectural styles. Mississauga Chinese Centre is famous for its giant Chinese gate and its Nine Dragon Wall. The future Splendid China Tower mall will feature a facade taken from Chinese palace architecture (much like the old Mr. Wong Super Buffet next to Tuxedo Court in Scarborough).
Yes, Chinatown may be "mercenary", but that's also why it's so authentic. It actually reflects the current no-frills business-like attitude of Hong Kong, Taiwan and China more than the suburban malls do. Chinatown feels more like an Asian street than any suburban Chinese mall.
A
Antiloop33rpm
Guest
Yes, Chinatown may be "mercenary", but that's also why it's so authentic. It actually reflects the current no-frills business-like attitude of Hong Kong, Taiwan and China more than the suburban malls do. Chinatown feels more like an Asian street than any suburban Chinese mall.
Well said Wylie. What makes that area so great is that it is so dynamic. There is little or no attempt to manufacture or engineer the area in the ways malls or theme parks do to create a certain atmosphere. The area simply is for no other reason that day in and day out citizens simply go about their business as they would in any other neighborhood. Thats why it thrives.
This same dynamic urbanism also makes its easy for people to scream the sky is falling at any sign of a slight decline or change. It doesnt mean that the neighborhood is immune to tough times, but if there is one area of Toronto that has the mommentum to ride out tough times this would be one of them.
Not to say that public recognition of its cultural composition is not an idea worth exploring. It could, if, whatever it was, properly done, could be a strong addition to the area. But bastardizing and commercializing culture and turning the area into a tourist attraction instead of a genuine urban neighborhood that people are simply drawn to at the first sign of a decline is a path that should without a doubt be avoided.