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Brampton: Queen Street RT

I looked at the metrolinx study, and they never considered any tunneling at all through downtown brampton, and assume the same speeds with LRT vs BRT (and never consider proper grade seperation - just signal priority). I would call that rigged to BRT, and not properly accounting for the potential of a proper, grade separated route along this corridor.
 
I looked at the metrolinx study, and they never considered any tunneling at all through downtown brampton, and assume the same speeds with LRT vs BRT (and never consider proper grade seperation - just signal priority). I would call that rigged to BRT, and not properly accounting for the potential of a proper, grade separated route along this corridor.
Just as Hurontario was always going to be LRT.....Queen was always going to be BRT.

The shame is that we have to go through the time and expense of sham reviews and consultations.
 
^ Part of the consultation for the Queen BRT is getting feedback on the dedicated right-of-way for Queen as they have presented three options. Also to educate the public on the changes that will happen. So, some of it is necessary.
 
^ Part of the consultation for the Queen BRT is getting feedback on the dedicated right-of-way for Queen as they have presented three options. Also to educate the public on the changes that will happen. So, some of it is necessary.
Honestly, none of it is "necessary" it makes them feel good that's about it.

What possible assistance in these major decisions could come from the few hundred people who ever show up at these things that is more valuable to them than their own hired expertise.

They do this so that if a decision is made that is controversial they can point to the 3 or 4 public meetings and say..."we consulted".
 
^ I see the desire for a faster approval process and ability to get shovels in the ground, but I just don't realistically see it drastically change. It would probably require some sort of the legislative change for the EA/TPAP process to reduce or eliminate the review period and public consultations, and there would be backlash. I don't see any of the four major parties doing it. Maybe there are more constructive ways to make the existing process better.
 
^ I see the desire for a faster approval process and ability to get shovels in the ground, but I just don't realistically see it drastically change. It would probably require some sort of the legislative change for the EA/TPAP process to reduce or eliminate the review period and public consultations, and there would be backlash. I don't see any of the four major parties doing it. Maybe there are more constructive ways to make the existing process better.
I agree...I do not expect it to change.....but the public consultation process is a sham and waste of time.
 
Just as Hurontario was always going to be LRT.....Queen was always going to be BRT.

The shame is that we have to go through the time and expense of sham reviews and consultations.

But for Brampton, you can see how this doesn't really make sense, right? Hurontario (in Brampton) is far lower density and has no major points of interest other than the downtown end point. Queen street gets far more traffic than Main (27k vs 17k daily riders), has lots of built up density with plenty of opportunities for more, and links to some major employment centers. So as a resident, I find metrolinx obsession with Main over Queen in Brampton to be perplexing.

Note that I would not have canned the Main LRT either - despite these comments as it is really just the tacked on end to an important line for Mississauga that would have improved connectivity. But I still find it perplexing.
 
But for Brampton, you can see how this doesn't really make sense, right? Hurontario (in Brampton) is far lower density and has no major points of interest other than the downtown end point. Queen street gets far more traffic than Main (27k vs 17k daily riders), has lots of built up density with plenty of opportunities for more, and links to some major employment centers. So as a resident, I find metrolinx obsession with Main over Queen in Brampton to be perplexing.

Note that I would not have canned the Main LRT either - despite these comments as it is really just the tacked on end to an important line for Mississauga that would have improved connectivity. But I still find it perplexing.
I am also a resident....and the way I look at is this....if you "go by the numbers" both corridors should be BRT....but that is not how things are done.....and what really happened here is that

  • Mississauga wanted LRT and the province supported that....so the only way BRT makes sense on Main would be if the LRT stopped just south of the 407 (where the maintenance and storage facility will be) and Brampton ran BRT to that point.....but what happened is the LRT was planned to be extended up to Brampton GO....and we ended up with the mess/battle/deadlock we have now.
  • Similarly, whatever "RT" is built on Queen needs to meet the York Region system in a very smooth fashion....and since they are well along in building their BRT and extending it right out to highway 50....it would be very awkward if Brampton/Ontario decided that LRT was the right thing for Queen
The similarity is that in both corridors the tech solution was decided outside of Brampton by neighbouring municipalities......in one they got it wrong and in the other they got it right.
 
But is LRT really overkill for Queen? With a bit of love (especially in the segment just East of Airport Road) and continued intensification along the corridor, LRT would start to come into its own. It would also be far easier to come up with a proper solution through downtown Brampton (the metrolynx study punted on this completely by just having everything run in traffic - and this is very likley to become a major bottleneck for everything), and easier to tunnel under a couple of major intersections (in particular, Airport Road) that will effectively be impossible with BRT.

So, as a less informed planner type (and one of those evil Engineers) - what ridership would support an LRT on this corridor vs a BRT?
 
I am also a resident....and the way I look at is this....if you "go by the numbers" both corridors should be BRT....but that is not how things are done.....and what really happened here is that

  • Mississauga wanted LRT and the province supported that....so the only way BRT makes sense on Main would be if the LRT stopped just south of the 407 (where the maintenance and storage facility will be) and Brampton ran BRT to that point.....but what happened is the LRT was planned to be extended up to Brampton GO....and we ended up with the mess/battle/deadlock we have now.
  • Similarly, whatever "RT" is built on Queen needs to meet the York Region system in a very smooth fashion....and since they are well along in building their BRT and extending it right out to highway 50....it would be very awkward if Brampton/Ontario decided that LRT was the right thing for Queen
The similarity is that in both corridors the tech solution was decided outside of Brampton by neighbouring municipalities......in one they got it wrong and in the other they got it right.

^ re the first bullet point, there are various viewpoints out there on "what really happened", from a Brampton perspective. This view of the Main Street corridor choice and the technology choice is indeed one of them.

Another view is that two City of Brampton documents themselves identified the corridor, the Hurontario-Main Master Plan study was approved by Council (the final HMLRT TPAP recommendation was rejected by the 2010-2014 term of Council during the 2014 election), there was a 2014 provincial election that had the route and technology as part of the master plan, and upgrading the Zum corridor could be considered a public investment.

Some had/have concerns that if the ridership wasn't sufficient for LRT, the fare box recovery ratio would be too low and it'd put pressure on the municipal budget/tax increases/take away financial resources from other projects and the Brampton Transit system. Others didn't believe the magnitude of the change would have that big of an impact and a component of transit being a public service is helpful to keep in mind. Just providing this perspective because @Randomguy appears to be fairly new here - welcome! I totally appreciate others will completely disagree and reject with the above and appreciate that some will find it repetitive. The great part of UT is the diversity of views.

Totally agree on the second bullet point.
 
Just as Hurontario was always going to be LRT.....Queen was always going to be BRT.

The shame is that we have to go through the time and expense of sham reviews and consultations.
I work in government and employees usually call this "Decision based evidence making" when we're given direction to prepare a report when upper management has already decided what's going to be done.
 

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