GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[ssiguy2]

I did a little digging and found an article from Occasional Coherent from 2018 on the "physics of train acceleration". It was quite interesting and it shows exactly what we are looking for.

The study was sponsored by the MBTA to look at the potential of their new Boston regional rail network and what system and technology would work best. It compared a Flirt EMU {NOT DMU} with 500 PAX with a diesel loco pulled 3 car bi-level {same ones they use in Toronto} that also has 500 PAX and an 9 car bi-level diesel loco train with 1600 PAX, for acceleration. Here are the stats from a full stop to how many seconds it would take for each train to reach a certain distance in feet:

EMU..................50 seconds, 3000 ft, ...........100s, 8400 ft............150s, 14,400 ft
3 car Loco........50 seconds, 2000 ft.............100s, 7000 ft............150s, 13,000 ft
8 car Loco........50 seconds, 1000 ft.............100s, 4000 ft.............150s, 8000 ft

That is a very noticeable difference between a 3 and 9 car bi-level and shows after the first 100 seconds, there is no difference between the EMU & the 3 car loco. Considering Toronto runs 12 car trains,, the difference would be even greater. It also stated that the deacceleration rates were roughly inline with the difference in acceleration rates for each technology/system. The EMU wins that contest as well but the smaller loco still maintains a healthy gap between the much longer trains.

 

[Urban Sky]

Language aside, i doubt hes talking about the engineers, more like the VP's and above who dont do anything

Uhh... no one at ML runs the trains as you are insinuating. The guilty ones at ML are the planners consultants and decision makers who are stuck in the North american wild west commuter mindset. They deserve to all be fired. ML seriously needs to clean shop and hire new leadership from abroad who have actual knowledge of how to develop a modern 21st century rail network. Hell even india has much better rail than us... we are the worst in the G7 when it comes to rail infrastructure. that's shameful

I‘ve worked six years at the VIA HQ and collaborated with everyone from Marketing interns to the CEO (and also with quite a lot of people at various levels at Metrolinx, including a current VP I deeply respect and is the hardest-working and smartest person I’ve ever worked with) and I was talking about the same infantile belief you are exhibiting here that Metrolinx controls its own funding and thus destiny. Metrolinx is in the middle of a transformation which is funded with dozens of billions in taxpayer dollars, which are allocated and withdrawn at the whim of the provincial government.

This blaming of Metrolinx for decades of severe underinvestment pisses me off the same way it does when Deutsche Bahn rather than the German governments of the last 50 years is blamed for the low performance of trains in Germany. So if you are ashamed of the current state of rail infrastructure in this country, stop your pathetic whining and start holding your politicians accountable rather than pouring shit and hate onto the very people which work hard to defend necessary projects against the impossible demands and incompetence of politicians and bureaucrats!

Oh, and trust me, @hw621: those people looking for a cushiony salary and pension take the first occasion they get to quit Metrolinx and work instead as consultants in the private sector and thus beyond public shaming tools like the Ontario Sunshine List. I happen to be one of these consultants who occasionally works on Metrolinx projects and I feel ashamed whenever I look up the salaries of everyone I dealt with on the Metrolinx side.

Sorry for this rant, but you should really have gained at least the smallest bit of experience and knowledge about what people are actually doing and what challenges and fights they face on a daily basis before you feel entitled to pass (or defend) such harsh and needlessly insulting judgements on them.

Thank you!

 

[smallspy]

Uhh... no one at ML runs the trains as you are insinuating. The guilty ones at ML are the planners consultants and decision makers who are stuck in the North american wild west commuter mindset. They deserve to all be fired. ML seriously needs to clean shop and hire new leadership from abroad who have actual knowledge of how to develop a modern 21st century rail network. Hell even india has much better rail than us... we are the worst in the G7 when it comes to rail infrastructure. that's shameful

Something you and others who advocate for the wholesale dismantling of Metrolinx may want to consider, especially when you take into account who is currently in power in Queen's Park.

"The old boss is always a dick until you meet the new boss."

Dan

 

[alexb]

I‘ve worked six years at the VIA HQ and collaborated with everyone from Marketing interns to the CEO (and also with quite a lot of people at various levels at Metrolinx, including a current VP I deeply respect and is the hardest-working and smartest person I’ve ever worked with) and I was talking about the same infantile belief you are exhibiting here that Metrolinx controls its own funding and thus destiny. Metrolinx is in the middle of a transformation which is funded with dozens of billions in taxpayer dollars, which are allocated and withdrawn at the whim of the provincial government.

This blaming of Metrolinx for decades of severe underinvestment pisses me off the same way it does when Deutsche Bahn rather than the German governments of the last 50 years is blamed for the low performance of trains in Germany. So if you are ashamed of the current state of rail infrastructure in this country, stop your pathetic whining and start holding your politicians accountable rather than pouring shit and hate onto the very people which work hard to defend necessary projects against the impossible demands and incompetence of politicians and bureaucrats!

Oh, and trust me, @hw621: those people looking for a cushiony salary and pension take the first occasion they get to quit Metrolinx and work instead as consultants in the private sector and thus beyond public shaming tools like the Ontario Sunshine List. I happen to be one of these consultants who occasionally works on Metrolinx projects and I feel ashamed whenever I look up the salaries of everyone I dealt with on the Metrolinx side.

Sorry for this rant, but you should really have gained at least the smallest bit of experience and knowledge about what people are actually doing and what challenges and fights they face on a daily basis before you feel entitled to pass (or defend) such harsh and needlessly insulting judgements on them.

Thank you!

Are you hiring?

 

[Cambry Ardship]

If Metrolinx wants people to trust them then why aren't they more transparent and communicative with what's happening at the largest public works projects in the country?

 

[Urban Sky]

Are you hiring?

Yes, though no idea how relevant these positions are for your background.

If Metrolinx wants people to trust them then why aren't they more transparent and communicative with what's happening at the largest public works projects in the country?

Maybe because revealing the truth and starting to point fingers would needlessly upset the provincial government (i.e., their key stakeholder which provides all the funding on which all their projects crucially depend) which could cause further delay or descoping to any if the improvements you are so desperately waiting for…?

 

[Northern Light]

Maybe because revealing the truth and starting to point fingers would needlessly upset the provincial government (i.e., their key stakeholder which provides all the funding on which all their projects crucially depend) which could cause further delay or descoping to any if the improvements you are so desperately waiting for…?

That may well be accurate, but it is not acceptable.

At some point, you either have principles, or you do not.

The organization at this point, reads not merely as opaque, but dishonest, incompetent, and wasteful.

While that almost certainly doesn't apply to everyone there, it does by extension. That is to say, every person who let it happen, who let a boss, a co-worker, a subordinate, or a contractor under perform wears that under performance.

Excellence is everything.

Yes, the government and past decisions absolutely effect what's possible, the starting point, etc etc.

But that Mx has under performed with the resources it has is beyond question.

 

[Cambry Ardship]

It's not about blaming people or contractors. It's not about this one situation with DB. Metrolinx (along with too many other Canadian public organizations) has a culture of secrecy. Projects drag on for years past their delivery dates without any public updates or explanations, and issues or problems are not mentioned until journalists do the hard work of figuring out what's actually going on.

And the provincial government isn't their only key stakeholder. They have accountability to the public and Metrolinx should be really worried about the risks from completely losing public support.

 

[Thaboss]

That may well be accurate, but it is not acceptable.

At some point, you either have principles, or you do not.

The organization at this point, reads not merely as opaque, but dishonest, incompetent, and wasteful.

While that almost certainly doesn't apply to everyone there, it does by extension. That is to say, every person who let it happen, who let a boss, a co-worker, a subordinate, or a contractor under perform wears that under performance.

Excellence is everything.

The best metrolinx can do for itself is "leak" to the press about what's really happening.


I do not expect some member of their PR team to go rogue and reveal through official channels a centimeter more than they're authorized to.

You can blame this on ON voters giving ford a near supermajority (ford is now by far the most popular conservative in the country. He's even liked in QB!) the legislator and the om Canadian media's waning influence at the provincial or local level. Like, I cannot think of the last time media led expose impacted provincial politics in canada to a significant degree outside of those teachers strikes...that was 2 years ago

And the oposition can only scream and shout like cats stuck in the attic about this issue for so long until they too get bored. How many ppl who frequent this thread are aware of NDPs letter released on this issue ? Sad to say but the cons and the public will happily continue to ignore consiquential problems in this province.


I pray that alto doesn't suffer the same consiquence...

 

[Northern Light]

The best metrolinx can do for itself is "leak" to the press about what's really happening.

That's certainly one route to go; which some are......

But too few, too late.

I do not expect some member of their PR team to go rogue and reveal through official channels a centimeter more than they're authorized to.

Of course, but I expect coms people to communicate to their bosses that they're being put in a untenable position and that the organization, and by extension those bosses look bad as a result.

If you're a good communicator, you should be at least somewhat successful, some of the time.

Let me share this boss, we can spin this as you holding contractors or staff to account and make you look good in the process.

You can blame this on ON voters giving ford a near supermajority (ford is now by far the most popular conservative in the country. He's even liked in QB!) the legislator and the om Canadian media's waning influence at the provincial or local level. Like, I cannot think of the last time media led expose impacted provincial politics in canada to a significant degree outside of those teachers strikes...that was 2 years ago

FPTP is a very flawed electoral system, we all know that. Its decades overdue for reform.

I certainly would have preferred a different outcome in the last election, but I won't fault voters for 44% of the vote delivering almost 100% of the power. That's a badly designed system.

And the oposition can only scream and shout like cats stuck in the attic about this issue for so long until they too get bored. How many ppl who frequent this thread are aware of NDPs letter released on this issue ? Sad to say but the cons and the public will happily continue to ignore consiquential problems in this province.

Opposition parties are often ineffective in their communication as if a single zinger in question period is widely seen by the masses, and likely to move votes.

This isn't unique to the Crombie Libs and or the Stiles Dippers.......

Traditional media are under-resourced which certainly doesn't help matters, but most, also, aren't policy wonks, and they answer to editors/managers that often have agendas.

As someone who provides background to media semi-regularly, it amazes me the stories they pass on......there have been some very large scandals that few know about.

I pray that alto doesn't suffer the same consiquence...

I don't do the praying thing..........but I certainly share your concern.

 

[crs1026]

The blame certainly attracts to government(s) - in ML’s case, the blame for allowing a creative public narrative instead of an honest accounting can be traced back at least to Wynne and probably to McGinty. Instead of correcting earlier excesses, Ford has doubled down on secrecy and suppression of honest progress and cost reporting, and has let the fiction of impending improvements hang in-the air when clearly the completion of GO Expansion is still a decade or more away.
That seems to be all we can expect of politicians - it’s a very dishonest system.
What I can’t forgive is a Board or senior execs who choose to hang around in this slease pit, when the only honest and professional option for executives of integrity would be to either speak out publicly (no doubt costing them their jobs) or simply resigning in protest. One does see examples of that courage and integrity - Freeland vs Trudeau, Fauci vs Trump. It may be rare, but it’s the only honourable option.
A former ML staffer told me about a town hall that Phil Verster held shortly before his departure - Phil was asked about why certain things were done as they were - the Phil quote I was told is, “If you are going to work here, sometimes you have to park your integrity at the door”. Kinda sums things up, doesn’t it ?

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

It's not about blaming people or contractors. It's not about this one situation with DB. Metrolinx (along with too many other Canadian public organizations) has a culture of secrecy. Projects drag on for years past their delivery dates without any public updates or explanations, and issues or problems are not mentioned until journalists do the hard work of figuring out what's actually going on.

And the provincial government isn't their only key stakeholder. They have accountability to the public and Metrolinx should be really worried about the risks from completely losing public support.

Metrolinx exists at the whim of the Legislature and the Legislature did not provide it with independence from the Minister's Office. There has been plenty of reportage about communications having to be routed to the MO for approval. They have no real revenue of their own so their capital and operating budgets are what the cabinet says they are. Any MLX person at any level found to be leaking information they are not entitled to risk being dismissed. Some people have mortgages to pay and really don't care who the ultimate boss is.

I do wonder sometimes at the people who say "bring in the people from country x, they will get things going" then citing places like India which has a very different central planning culture (and retained railways as a central element of their economy in a way to Canada used to but no longer does) to the political calculus of Canadian federal and provincial cabinets and premiers. I certainly doubt some of them have ever lived in these countries (or lived outside Canada at all) when they dismiss people who obviously have like Urban Sky.

 

[jmi22]

I‘ve worked six years at the VIA HQ

"As a long term employee of Canada's most infamously incompetent, corrupt and opaque public transportation corporation, here's why I have no issue with Canada's second most infamously incompetent, corrupt and opaque public transportation corporation"

Hard to say I'm moved.

And before someone accuses me of baseless claims of corruption, I spent 12 years hearing all about it from a close relative who was an exec at VIA. Good chance you worked together at some point.
I won't say anything else about it as I understand some would view it as slanderous.

 

[Bojaxs]

Industry is slowly moving out of the inner 416 city to the outskirts of the 905. That requires new CN and CP freight lines to be built to service the 905. The new tracks should include provision for any future GO train AND high speed rail. As the new freight lines move out, that makes the old freight line available for GO (and high speed rail). Any new freight and passenger lines should include electrification.

CN & CP won't build new track lines to serve customers. If we're talking containers, then CN & CP will expect their customers to either truck their containers to their yards. Or utilize CN and CP's trucking lines to bring the containers to the Intermodal yard on the customer's dime. In most cases it's the customers that come to CN & CP, not the other way around. CN's newer Intermodal yard serving Calgary was built just outside the city limits in Conrich. It was barren land all around the yard when it first opened. I went their last year and now warehouses are beginning to pop up around the yard. The same will happen with Milton. I already seen signs on plots of land around the Milton yard advertising Commercial/ Industrial land or sale along Tremaine Rd.

Now CN & CP will build new yards on the existing mainline to better serve customers. Such as the case of Milton with CN. That yard will better serve their customers located in southern Ontario & the Hamilton area since they'll no longer have to truck their goods to Brampton anymore. But CN & CP are not building newer lines to serve just one or two customers. It's just not worth the cost.

 

[smallspy]

CN & CP won't build new track lines to serve customers.

You really shouldn't talk in absolutes when they're not true.

I could call up CN tomorrow, and for $40,000 they could put in a siding for me.

Dan